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| Spanish train crash 24/07/2013 at 21:44 #47523 | |
Signalhunter
177 posts |
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/24/world/europe/spain-train-crash/?hpt=hp_t1
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| Spanish train crash 24/07/2013 at 22:39 #47524 | |
northroad
872 posts |
Might sound a stupid question but the article on the web page quoted above says towards the end of the article that Spain's airport authority are investigating......why are the airport authority involved? Geoff Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 24/07/2013 at 23:16 #47525 | |
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bnsf734
60 posts |
From the pictures I have seen it looks like a Talgo train (Articulated short coaches and each coach has 1 axle with 2 small wheels) Not nice news to hear, and condolences to everybody involved. Calv Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 08:06 #47527 | |
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Josie
310 posts |
" said:why are the airport authority involved?I think that's been changed, as it now says 'train infrastructure authority' [sic]. That's Adif, who appear to be the Spanish equivalent of Network Rail. Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 09:08 #47530 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Report in the Grauniad that it entered a 80kmh curve at 180kmh. Picture showing one carriage flung over the retaining wall (seemingly landed upright), that wall must be at least 10m high so there was certainly a lot of energy involved (tends to support the idea the train was travelling very fast). So the question now is why? Which takes us into realms of speculation I don't want to enter (I don't even have any private ideas).
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| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 09:53 #47536 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
Only 2 possibilities I think - Some sort of malfunction on the train Driver Incapacitated/Intoxicated Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 10:25 #47540 | |
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SPADmad
104 posts |
here is the BBC's take : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
Last edited: 25/07/2013 at 10:25 by SPADmad Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 11:05 #47545 | |
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John
884 posts |
Is there no equivalent of TPWS overspeed in Spain?
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| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 11:16 #47547 | |
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hotwellian
211 posts |
A rather scary video from ADIF track monitoring here
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| Spanish train crash 25/07/2013 at 11:24 #47550 | |
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hotwellian
211 posts |
It appears that there is no European Rail Traffic Management System at that point where High Speed trains (AVE, Alvia, etc) use track originally engineered in the Franco era as there was no room to build new tracks. See details in El Pais here if your Spanish is up to it.
Last edited: 25/07/2013 at 11:55 by hotwellian Reason: detail Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 00:39 #47583 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Here is an in-cab approach to this curve. Click Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 09:06 #47593 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Some thoughts beginning to emerge as I hear various snippets. If I understand it correctly, this line has ERTMS. But Barry's link shows there are lineside signals so I imagine it's Level 1. Regardless, that should provide speed supervision. So I have questions in my mind about the working of ERTMS: the balises should have triggered an intervention to reduce the speed of the train to a safe level; why didn't they? Was there some deficiency in the data? Or did the on-train equipment not respond properly to the data it received? Driver disorientation seems unlikely; the approach, with that tunnel, seems quite distinctive. But driver reliance on a speed reduction warning from the ERTMS is certainly plausible, especially if he's trying to regain time by running to the limit and braking only at the last minute. Lot of questions. But I'm beginning to think there might be at least a little more to it than driver error. Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 09:30 #47594 | |
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hotwellian
211 posts |
" said:
This section of track does not have ERTMS. It uses the older Spanish system ASFA. This provides a warning when the first beacon (or Baliza) is passed and then a further warning if a second is passed at excess speed. It appears that the effect of applying emergency braking to just the tractor car, rather than across the whole train may have had something to do with the derailment. Further details here (in Spanish). You can hear the beacons being passed on the video link provided by Barry M (above). This link quotes the driver, saying "I f***ed up!" Last edited: 26/07/2013 at 10:00 by hotwellian Reason: tweak Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 09:31 #47595 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
Spanish Railways do have ERMTS but it finishes before it gets to the Curve. There is an older safety system at the crash site but I have no idea what it is. There is one thing that does bother me. First we must accept the the train entered the curve at a speed well in excess of the speed limit. The CCTV footage and the resulting carnage prove that beyond a doubt. The official word is that there were two drivers on the train but only one was being investigated. First, was the 2nd driver in the Cab? I assume he was. 2nd, what was the 2nd driver actually doing at the time e.g. sleeping, reading a newspaper or observing the first driver? If he was observing the first driver did he warn him that he was approaching the curve at two high a speed? I suspect that somebody, either an individual or a Company will be facing criminal charges due to the high death toll. Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 10:16 #47597 | |
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Ray
211 posts |
Looking at the video of the crash you can see immediately that the curve is not banked for a speed anywhere near 100 mph. Its hard to see any banking on that curve at all so its not surprising that the train could not hold the track on the curve.
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| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 13:16 #47605 | |
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sorabain
72 posts |
I wouldn't expect the driver to be in a good mental state now, or particularly right after the accident so would still hold off on condemning him (and any other staff) based on a confession when in a state of shock before all the evidence is in.
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| Spanish train crash 26/07/2013 at 15:43 #47609 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Why was that camera there? It's been mentioned as a "security" camera, but to secure what? It seems to be the only camera in the vicinity, and it's pointing directly along the tracks, not at the bridge or the walls with the graffiti.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 14:53 #47664 | |
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jwsetford
164 posts |
The driver of the train has been arrested as he said on Facebook how cool it would be if he went over the speed limit and get caught doing it by the police.
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| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 15:13 #47667 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
My interpretation of his statement on Facebook was that it would be a blast to set off the police car's radar as he would be breaking the road speed limit.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 16:24 #47671 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
I sincerely hope this does not turn into a Lynch Mob mentality. This will hamper the efforts of the Enquiry to conduct a thorough investigation. I feel the Enquiry needs to address two important issues. Firstly the role of the 2nd Driver, both at present and in future, if the Enquiry feels a change is necessary. If it is the case that the 2nd Driver does not have to be in the Cab then surely the rules should be changed as this would most likely have prevented this Disaster. The 2nd Issue is more likely to be both a Railway and a Political one. This is ERMTS. Had it been in place it would have almost certainly prevented this accident. What plans are in place to extend it and how much of the rail Network will it cover if any? ERMTS must surely be considered an important safety investment. Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 17:11 #47674 | |
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Ray
211 posts |
It's interesting to speculate upon the mentality of the driver of the train. Perhaps he was under the allusion that he could go at any speed on a curved section of track. If this is the case then it is very worrying. Most people are aware of the laws of physics through mishaps in childhood. e.g. falling off a bike at speed on a bend. These experiences teach us respect for speed in a moving vehicle. Do children learn these things nowadays in this computer age ?
Last edited: 28/07/2013 at 17:20 by Ray Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 17:51 #47676 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
Regarding the ETCS, supposedly the train was on track equipped with such, but that ended shortly before the curve (and the cab ride video posted earlier appears to back that up). That got me wondering - talking generally here as there must be other locations with similar issues - whether the system is programmed for events outside the control area, or whether it just "sees" the end of the line at 200k/h (or whatever) and anything beyond is not known. In other words, is there a ramping down of speed towards the end of ETCS sections in anticipation of upcoming speed limits outside the ETCS control area?
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 21:25 #47684 | |
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Signalhunter
177 posts |
" said:Why was that camera there? It's been mentioned as a "security" camera, but to secure what? It seems to be the only camera in the vicinity, and it's pointing directly along the tracks, not at the bridge or the walls with the graffiti.Might it be a "speed camera"? To actually observe the speed of trains around that curve. "Security" might have a different meaning before translation from Spanish. Eg., a "Monitoring camera" might be a "Security camera". Just a thought. Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 22:31 #47688 | |
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BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:" said:I think it is there to monitor the overbridge. Possibly persons have been throwing projectiles at passing trains.Why was that camera there? It's been mentioned as a "security" camera, but to secure what? It seems to be the only camera in the vicinity, and it's pointing directly along the tracks, not at the bridge or the walls with the graffiti.Might it be a "speed camera"? To actually observe the speed of trains around that curve. "Security" might have a different meaning before translation from Spanish. Eg., a "Monitoring camera" might be a "Security camera". Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Spanish train crash 28/07/2013 at 22:49 #47690 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
BBC News has reported the Driver has been charged with 79 Counts of 'Reckless Homicide'.
"Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |