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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 15:26 #47811 | |
brendangn1986
1 posts |
From what I've read, the signalling systems are almost identical. Could one be written for a station in Dublin for example? That would be great.
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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 15:49 #47814 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Theoretically, yes.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 19:57 #47820 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
Brendan-Geoff is offering you false hope. There is virtually no possibility of an Irish SimSig sim appearing in your lifetime. SimSig operates in secret. So we don't know what they are working on. They work exceedingly slowly, if at all. Sims take many years to produce. For example, the Derby sim, which first appeared in 2009, I think, still has not been released. For all we know, the developer may have died in the meantime. I have had an early copy of the Derby sim for at least two years now. It is perfectly useable, so whatever work the developer did has been entirely wasted, as Derby continues to sit on the shelf collecting dust. A whole collection of English sims are in the same boat. When Sims are released, charges have been introduced, meaning that only a handful of people will ever buy them and certainly not enough to even operate a multi-play game. So, once again, the developer's work is thrown away (and people pay for a facility that they won't be able to use.) SimSig is neither a successful, commercial games company or a happy, thriving, open and expanding hobby group. Expect howls of protest/abuse from the regulars/officials in order to silence criticism and maintain the abject status quo. The point of this post is that developers' work is being wasted. I know that they work voluntarily and in their free time. Let there be an actual discussion about the issues involved, instead of the usual slogans. Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 20:44 #47821 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
I'm not going the howl abuse at you. However I will point out the following: North Wales Coast development began in mid May 2012 and was released in November 2012. So that's about 7 months start to finish. Certainly not years. As for a discussion on why things take so long, personally I've been delayed since November by changing jobs, and course work and exam revision for my A Levels (And if my testers are to be believed dealing with a string of girl friends). Now that's all over some rapid progress is being made on my projects. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 01/08/2013 at 20:44 by headshot119 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Stephen Fulcher, guyh, tlib, UKTrainMan, Firefly, TimTamToe, Sam Tugwell, onlydjw |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 22:32 #47825 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
Hi Brendan, I'd like to see one of Heuston or Pearse myself. One would need to start with gathering all the relevant information - track circuit layout, signals, points and any quirks of the signalling system, and then the train timetable. In due course if a developer becomes free then it could be done. As far as I know none of the developers are based in Ireland so information is thin on the ground. The DART system might offer a bit more interest also. Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 01/08/2013 at 23:45 #47828 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Roadrunner, stop griping! There are some 30 sims available free to play. What more do you want? The WORLD? Name me a site where you can get a better deal? It is up to the Developer to provide information about a sim to Simsig's Forum, not Simsig or the testers. If the Developer does not want to release a sim, there is nothing that can be done about it. There is nothing more to discuss by you or me. I do not think you appreciate what is involved in the complex compiling the hundreds of pages of data that go into making a sim. Time and money is involved. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following users said thank you: UKTrainMan, TimTamToe, andyb0607, GoochyB, ralphjwchadkirk, Noisynoel |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 02/08/2013 at 09:44 #47831 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
You could start with some non CAWS sections or something self contained like Cork-Cobh-Midleton ( and lash in Youghal for fun ), mix of semaphore and colour light as I recall. IRRS could probably give you all the track detail you wanted . But there is no devkit publicly available so I've no idea where you would start
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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 02/08/2013 at 10:44 #47832 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Roadrunner I think you need to join the real world. From the tone of your post I suspect you're rather young and lacking in life experience. When a developer decides to embark on developing a sim they obviously have sufficient time on their hands to do so and they're very keen on their new project. As time goes on things can change. It may be that they've now got a child and have decided that they'd like to be a part of that child's life rather than ignoring them and spending every minute of spare time developing a simulation. They may have been unemployed when they started developing but now have a job. Perhaps they're moving house, maybe their girlfriend is fed up with being ignored or perhaps they just have a new interest in life, there are so many reasons why someone would start a sim but then get delayed along the way. I know from my own experience that 4 years ago I had time to extensively test Edinburgh, these days I only get time to answer specific signalling queries that developers have, life changes. If I was a developer there's not a chance I would ever give a hint of when I expected a sim to be ready because that would then put undue pressure on me to get it done. Pressure that as a volunteer I wouldn't want. And yes, as you say the developer may have died. Like it or not, until somebody in Simsig decides that they want to make a living out of developing these simulations (which is surely not viable) then you're stuck with volunteers doing it as and when they can be bothered. Whinge all you like, it's not going to change. FF Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, Forest Pines, UKTrainMan, DriverCurran, GoochyB, derbybest, Noisynoel, officer dibble, ralphjwchadkirk, BarryM, NCC1701 |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 02/08/2013 at 11:12 #47834 | |
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John
884 posts |
Roadrunner. I'm not going to howl abuse at you, nor am I going to chant 'the usual slogans', but what I would like to say -- as somebody who has participated in and enjoyed a great many of your multiplay sessions -- is just how surprised and disappointed I am at your attitude. 
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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 03/08/2013 at 06:59 #47864 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
As a programmer myself (not a Simsig developer, but a programmer in general), this is exactly why, if I ever were to develop a game, I would very likely tell almost nobody until it was finished. Because life happens, and because even if life doesn’t happen, the universal rule of software development is that the first 90% of the code takes the first 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the code takes the second 90% of the time. The level of care I see in these simulations is incredible, and while looking from the outside it feels like Simsig would be a fairly straightforward programming task, I also have enough development experience to know that first appearances are almost always deceiving, and there’s surely complexity that only crops up once you actually dig in and start doing the work. That’s just how programming goes. I have great respect for those who, mostly for free with a few very-reasonably-priced exceptions, not only find the time to code up simulations, but find the time to research the routes and make them accurate—I imagine the latter to be the harder and more time-consuming part!
Last edited: 03/08/2013 at 07:00 by Hawk777 Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 04/08/2013 at 15:54 #47926 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
As a principal consultant in enterprise software, it is a truism that release dates are almost never issued. Best you'll get is Q4 2013 for example, but that is rarely the case. But that is paid development for a paid product.
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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 12:26 #48013 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:Brendan-Geoff is offering you false hope. There is virtually no possibility of an Irish SimSig sim appearing in your lifetime.I'm just going to answer this for the record; the regulars already know most of this. Quote: That varies. I wrote one sim (Drain) during a particularly boring all-day meeting. Other sims have taken me months or even a couple of years. It all depends on what time is available to the developer. Quote: I don't recall who the developer is for Derby, so I can't ask them what the delay is. But I'm sure they have a good reason for not having finished it yet. Just because "it is perfectly useable" doesn't mean there are no bugs. The sim I'm working on at present is "perfectly useable" - I've run trains along it and built a timetable. It just happens to have major deficiencies - it is *NOT* a faithful reproduction of the area being simulated, but a horrible mish-mash. But unless you are intimately familiar with the area, you wouldn't know that. Before I release it, or even send it to testers, it needs a lot more work. It's going to get that work, but I don't know when. Quote: Name them. Put up or shut up. Quote: On some sims. I've already committed that when I refresh Cambridge, Peterborough, Euston, and WembleySub, they will remain free. The sim I talk about above will be free. Whether to charge is something that individual devs decide on an individual basis. Quote: Ha ha ha. Don't quit the day job. Quote: Given the number of downloads of sims, it looks pretty thriving and happy to me. Quote: If you were being silenced, your post would have quickly disappeared. But it hasn't, has it? Constructive criticism is welcome - it's driven new features in sims in the past, for example. Quote: Yes, people work voluntarily and in their free time. In my case, "free time" has become somewhat of a scarcity - there are two young children and a baby in my house that weren't there 14 months ago. That's put an unavoidable crimp on my ability to do stuff - both my own sims and the core code stuff that other devs are waiting for. If a developer has produced a simulation that's ready for release, it would normally be released. Whether it's free or paid is at that developer's choice. Quote: Which issues? I can't see any that haven't already been discussed to death. Ah, I can see an issue: you need to tell us what *your* hidden agenda is. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: meeko, Noisynoel, Josie, seagulls, northroad, UKTrainMan, ralphjwchadkirk, TomOF, andyb0607, John, TimTamToe, Class 92, JamesN, DriverCurran, Forest Pines, Sam Tugwell, memorialstingray, rowan, GoochyB, kbarber |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 12:47 #48015 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Quote:Not joining in the moan, but the sims I can think of from the top of my head that have been mentioned/appeared, but then never heard of again, include:Name them. Put up or shut up. The two remaining Three Bridges sims (I don't remember if Croydon was a sub-sim of these, or a separate one) Birmingham New Street Trent (70s/80s modes have yet to appear, and there's some fairly major bugs in the current "release") Derby West Hampstead, maybe? My main gripe with Simsig is that patches for bugs very rarely seem to get released in a timely manner, despite being stated as "fixed" whenever they're mentioned! This may well become an issue now that people are paying for sims, and expect things to work or be sorted out quickly - the "put up or shut up" attitude doesn't work with paying customers. Last edited: 06/08/2013 at 12:50 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 13:22 #48017 | |
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John
884 posts |
" said:My main gripe with Simsig is that patches for bugs very rarely seem to get released in a timely manner, despite being stated as "fixed" whenever they're mentioned!It's a fair point, and I'd hate to sound ungrateful, but I've often wondered the same thing. Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 14:25 #48022 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
I'm writing some of this from a tester's perspective, really in answer to what this topic has become, rather than what it was originally for. As a tester, I can test the basics of a sim built for anywhere, but relating that to the particular location and/or reality is a different matter. I find it much easier relating to an area I know, and some of the projects I've been asked to look at where I'm not familiar with the area take a lot more getting used to. So to build an Irish based sim, would you need a couple of testers who know the area and understood any differences between the UK and Irish systems? Moving onto the discussion the topic has moved into, a few years ago, it seemed that the meets were all about various preview sims, some of which still haven't been finished/released - even though many people have copies of these sims which appear to work to various levels of bugginess! Today, SimSig has taken the decision to change the way sims are handled regarding meets, so that anything that is previewed probably wouldn't leave the developers laptop (if anything was previewed at all). Personally, from what I've seen, this is better. It takes the pressure off developers and testers to meet deadlines which aren't practicle (as a tester I've been set deadlines before which have been fairly impossible to meet). Talking of patches to fix bugs - I believe the recent core code changes allow changes to be made much easier in some circumstances - as to whether this will speed things up, we will have to wait and see... I can think of various sims (some of which appear above, some don't) in this category, and I can also think of others which we've seen updates for at meets which haven't come through (South Humberside being one which I can talk about). In this case, it's the time available for developer, consultants and testers (any one of whom will have a full time job, family etc which come before SimSig). There's probably only a small minority (possibly even Geoff only) who is full time doing SimSig-type work, and hence some of the reason of the changes towards charging (from what I understand), plus others may be having changes in circumstances too, meaning they need to justify their time spent doing things. I agree that there are a number of sims with bugs in their release versions which have apparently been fixed some time ago. I agree that this may seem frustrating, but I take South Humberside again. I came into the project after the initial release, and indeed after most of the major bugs had been found. What I saw from the outside was a number of inaccuracies. I detailed these someone on the forum, and thought nothing more of it. I was then asked to attend the London meet that year to meet with Chris Lord to discuss things. From there, I was asked to help look at the things I had suggested. As time went on, I was given tips and hints on how to test things (rather than just finding inaccuracies). As I started finding more things, unfortunately the project went from fixing a few things for a re-release to what I would term a major overhaul. Over two years on, testers have come and gone, and I've been slowly teaching myself (pretty much) how to do things to try to move forwards. There are things I'll miss, or don't know how to do - but I can but do my best within the confines of my knowledge, time and the SimSig community. And then when something like an amount of new data becomes available, we try to react to that data to make the finished sim as realistic and bug free as possible - all this takes more time. Some developers have the opinion that a lot of the fine tuning isn't necessary for the time taken to achieve it, but my opinion (and generally that of the poeple I am working with) is that SimSig is aimed to be a professional product produced to a high standard, and in my opinion, this is even more so if the sim is to be charged for. As a tester, all my testing thus far is done for nothing (rightly or wrongly), simply because I cannot commit hours and hours of time to those who have approached me about short term intensive testing, which I don't have between work and other commitments. If I was able to make SimSig financially viable within my life, then it may be a different story. I suggest that to increase the amount of sims produced, money would need to change hands, and given what's already been said, that would mean higher (and probably compulsary) charges to allow testers and developers to receive enough money to not require other income streams (mostly jobs) to allow the time for them to spend on SimSig projects. To produce a quality sim, in my opinion requires a partnership between the developers (the individual and SimSig) and testers/timetable writers. For me when the parties work together, thigns happen quicker than all doing separate bits, especially when something tricky comes up and we spend weeks sometimes with e-mails going back and forth trying to explain to each other what's happening - you can see how project timescales slip now! In some cases, there are timezone differences meaning that getting people together to do something becomes even more tricky. Sometimes, the development progress is held up with core code changes (we've had a lot recently), and sometimes the developer has to stop developing, and make changes required to fit the existing sim into the new code required by the SimSig management - Karl mentioned this above, and his certainly aren't the only sims in this category. Basically, unless someone devises a scheme whereby SimSig does not rely on volunteers, and we all get paid fairly and equally, then we're stuck pretty much where we are. There may be some who have more time than me (retired, unemployed, medical issues etc) who can put time into projects to push them along a bit faster, but we can only develop and test sims to the slowest common denominator in the chain. If anyone can suggest a way of making SimSig financially viable, then I'm sure the developers and testers would be interested in hearing from you - until then, I'll have to make do with being paid to buy car parts and serve customers, and fit SimSig into my evenings and weekends! God bless, Daniel Wilson Last edited: 06/08/2013 at 14:28 by onlydjw Log in to reply The following users said thank you: John, Class 92, Signalhunter, Noisynoel, meeko, kbarber |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 15:51 #48024 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:My main gripe with Simsig is that patches for bugs very rarely seem to get released in a timely manner, despite being stated as "fixed" whenever they're mentioned! This may well become an issue now that people are paying for sims, and expect things to work or be sorted out quickly - the "put up or shut up" attitude doesn't work with paying customers." said: It's a fair point, and I'd hate to sound ungrateful, but I've often wondered the same thing.Fixes for Marylebone and the system files were released one month after the initial release. This was mainly because I was away on business and holiday for two weeks. Fixes for the Scottish sims might have been a little longer - I don't recall exactly - but likely only a couple of months at most. " said: There's probably only a small minority (possibly even Geoff only) who is full time doing SimSig-type workFor the record, I'm not full time on SimSig but am full time on railway work. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 19:39 #48046 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:In honesty, those are the exception rather than the rule (although given that they are pay-for sims, they are good exceptions!) - the problem is that Simsig has built up a reputation for not fixing long-standing bugs for one reason or another, and the feeling I've had from several people is that they're unwilling to pay, in case the developer decides that they have "finished" with the sim or no longer have the time to support it.My main gripe with Simsig is that patches for bugs very rarely seem to get released in a timely manner, despite being stated as "fixed" whenever they're mentioned! This may well become an issue now that people are paying for sims, and expect things to work or be sorted out quickly - the "put up or shut up" attitude doesn't work with paying customers." said:It's a fair point, and I'd hate to sound ungrateful, but I've often wondered the same thing.Fixes for Marylebone and the system files were released one month after the initial release. This was mainly because I was away on business and holiday for two weeks. Fixes for the Scottish sims might have been a little longer - I don't recall exactly - but likely only a couple of months at most. Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 19:45 #48047 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:" said:It is something I'm aware of and am addressing." said:In honesty, those are the exception rather than the rule (although given that they are pay-for sims, they are good exceptions!) - the problem is that Simsig has built up a reputation for not fixing long-standing bugs for one reason or another, and the feeling I've had from several people is that they're unwilling to pay, in case the developer decides that they have "finished" with the sim or no longer have the time to support it.My main gripe with Simsig is that patches for bugs very rarely seem to get released in a timely manner, despite being stated as "fixed" whenever they're mentioned! This may well become an issue now that people are paying for sims, and expect things to work or be sorted out quickly - the "put up or shut up" attitude doesn't work with paying customers." said:It's a fair point, and I'd hate to sound ungrateful, but I've often wondered the same thing.Fixes for Marylebone and the system files were released one month after the initial release. This was mainly because I was away on business and holiday for two weeks. Fixes for the Scottish sims might have been a little longer - I don't recall exactly - but likely only a couple of months at most. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 20:47 #48052 | |
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Hpotter
205 posts |
Right... Time to speak up! :huh: Derby, Worksop and another simulation in development are my responsibility, so... Where do we all stand? Since changing jobs, I don't have much spare social time to do development work, but rest assured, things are all being worked on, please just be patient about things. (And no, this not from the dark side as my wireless keyboard is not that good from 6ft under! :cheer: ) As per other comments, core code has changed, things being re-tested, new data etc etc, so, all in all, it's not been forgotten, or a waste of time doing so either. As a final matter on the subject from me, some sims where previewed as beta releases at some meets in the past, this approach has now been changed, for a few reasons... 1) To stop people asking when will it be ready? 2) So that developers and testers don't feel like they are under pressure, even more so as we all do it in our spare time. 3) And finally, so when a simulation is released, it can be as accurate as possible with the data we have been supplied with from our various sources. But, in the mean time, lets keep things positive and moving forward so that we can all enjoy the benefits of what has been achieved so far. (Long winded message / essay over! :whistle: ) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, Steamer, Hooverman, Forest Pines, andyb0607, DriverCurran, JamesN |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 06/08/2013 at 23:23 #48059 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
Topic. So if someone in Ireland with a reasonable knowledge wanted to write a Simsig for Ireland where would they start (assuming they have WTT and access to all the data, maps, TC lengths etc. Where would they get the devkit ? Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 07/08/2013 at 16:48 #48078 | |
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Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:Topic.The dev kit is not available publically I am afraid. There a bit more info on the wiki here - http://www.SimSig.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=usertrack:faq:can_i_make_my_own_SimSig Last edited: 07/08/2013 at 16:53 by Lardybiker Log in to reply |
| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 07/08/2013 at 18:48 #48095 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
There is no publicly available devkit I'm afraid.
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| Could a simulation be written for irish system? 08/08/2013 at 19:21 #48127 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
It's very easy to forget how people may have lives outside of producing simulations. That isn't meant to be patronising - I'm sure we've all (I certainly have) felt irritated about how long it takes for some things to be done, but I try to quickly remind myself that there is a person behind the username. People's circumstances have changed. A year ago today, I had almost unlimited social time. Now, I've got none at all. I'm doing a degree, working long hours in London for the past couple of weeks, and am about to go back to working 12, 13, 14 and sometimes 15 hour shifts. I'm sure equally disruptive things have happened in developer's lives as well. That's not to say my general support of developers means I think things are perfect. Like other posters, I am sometimes annoyed by the time it takes to release fixed bugs. I'm also disappointed that Croydon and Gatwick haven't been fully released. However, I'm quite happy with the volume and quality of simulations we have, the majority of which, we are incredibly lucky to have for free. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Temple Meads, John |