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New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 11:00 #56429 | |
mfloyd
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Morning, never seen this on Westbury (loader version). TORR not working - but no option to disable/enable. Is it a quirk of this TT or is there a bug? I though Westbury always had TORR as standard. Thanks in advance! Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 11:01 #56430 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
TORR is only available on Perfect and Beginner scenarios.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 02/03/2014 at 11:01 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mfloyd |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 11:03 #56431 | |
mfloyd
![]() 187 posts ![]() |
Have got bad weather, so would make sense! Thanks Steamer
Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 11:18 #56432 | |
postal
![]() 5216 posts ![]() |
If you want to run with TORR enabled but with a more challenging scenario, you can always load as Perfect or Beginner then adjust the failure and delay levels through F3.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, mfloyd |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 11:59 #56434 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Quote:Have got bad weather, so would make sense!For those unfamiliar with Westbury, "Bad Weather" is one of the scenario options, along with Perfect, Beginner, Standard, etc. To quote from the Wiki: Quote: TORR (Train Operated Route Release)It seems strange to me that a busy area such as Westbury should not have TORR enabled by default for all scenarios. Can it be true that in real life there is no TORR between Southcote and Cogload (extreme ends of this sim)?? I also note that the only reference to TORR in the Wiki outside sim manuals is in the Glossary. It should also be included under Approach Locking and I will edit the Wiki accordingly. Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 12:28 #56435 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:In real life, Westbury does not have TORR, I don't know about Reading. In the grand scheme of things, the Westbury area (panels A and B on the sim) aren't particularly busy. It doesn't get any better at Cogload- Exeter PSB doesn't have TORR either. EDIT: Personally, I think TORR should be set up in the same way as Exeter- available as a tick box when starting a new simulation. (End edit) Quote: I also note that the only reference to TORR in the Wiki outside sim manuals is in the Glossary. It should also be included under Approach Locking and I will edit the Wiki accordingly.What does TORR have to do with approach locking? Approach Locking is what happens when you pull a route in front of a train, TORR is what happens when the train passes a 'clear' signal. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 02/03/2014 at 12:42 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 12:55 #56436 | |
JamesN
![]() 1591 posts ![]() |
Reading Panel did not have TORR - the buttons can't turn themselves back!
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Steamer |
New Commuter TT 02/03/2014 at 13:24 #56440 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Quote:Quote:I really meant "included along with Approach Locking in Setting a route - Basics page in the Wiki." Sorry to have given the wrong impression. At the time I had just been reading Approach Locking and Train Operated Route Release (quite a good reference) and it seems natural to group the two as they are both concerned with route release, even though as you say the mechanisms are entirely different!I also note that the only reference to TORR in the Wiki outside sim manuals is in the Glossary. It should also be included under Approach Locking and I will edit the Wiki accordingly.What does TORR have to do with approach locking? Quote: Personally, I think TORR should be set up in the same way as Exeter- available as a tick box when starting a new simulation.Couldn't agree more. Is there any reason why this couldn't be incorporated into the system files instead of being left to the discretion of each sim writer? Quote: In real life, Westbury does not have TORR, I don't know about Reading. In the grand scheme of things, the Westbury area (panels A and B on the sim) aren't particularly busy. It doesn't get any better at Cogload- Exeter PSB doesn't have TORR either.In that case, trying to play all panels at once with TORR off you'd be moving faster than an ant on a hot stove. Last edited: 02/03/2014 at 13:28 by maxand Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 02:17 #56462 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
I've extensively updated the Setting a route - basics page to include TORR, ACOA and expand Route release and cancellation, Approach locking and Approach control, without trying to overpower the beginner by putting in too much. Comments and corrections welcome.
Last edited: 03/03/2014 at 04:53 by maxand Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 11:20 #56464 | |
dmaze
![]() 88 posts |
" said:Couldn't agree more. Is there any reason why [the default TORR setting] couldn't be incorporated into the system files instead of being left to the discretion of each sim writer?Some number of signal boxes do actually have TORR, so there's often a "prototypically correct" option. On sims where it's a ticky-box setting, I'm never actually clear what the "correct" setting is. (And that can be "yes", "no", "depends on era", "depends on location" [Motherwell], "only in areas that aren't really semaphore signals", ...) (Speaking of Motherwell, if you're writing a big treatise on signal replacement sparked by the default TORR option changing, there are several signals in Motherwell that are last-wheel replaced. While I wouldn't really recommend Motherwell to someone needing a SimSig tutorial, it's probably worth at least mentioning the behavior...) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 11:34 #56465 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Quote:Speaking of Motherwell, if you're writing a big treatise on signal replacement sparked by the default TORR option changing, there are several signals in Motherwell that are last-wheel replaced.Thanks dmaze for the info. Rather than confuse the newbie I'll add that to the glossary entry for TORR. For anyone else new to this thread, it refers to the Westbury Commuter Hub TT by bandiez. The original thread for this is here: Westbury Fictional Timetable I'm playing this at the moment and really enjoying it. Thanks bandiez. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bandiez |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 11:49 #56466 | |
sloppyjag
![]() 480 posts |
There's a few last-wheel replaced signals on Carlisle as well.
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 11:52 #56467 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Trying not to be pedantic, are these axle counter installations officially included under TORR? Edited TORR glossary entry here. Last edited: 03/03/2014 at 11:55 by maxand Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 12:34 #56468 | |
TomOF
![]() 452 posts |
Generally speaking, Last wheel replacement and axle counters have no bearing on TORR.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 13:17 #56470 | |
Peter Bennet
![]() 5376 posts ![]() |
" said:Some number of signal boxes do actually have TORR, so there's often a "prototypically correct" option. On sims where it's a ticky-box setting, I'm never actually clear what the "correct" setting is. (And that can be "yes", "no", "depends on era", "depends on location" [Motherwell], "only in areas that aren't really semaphore signals", ...) Not 100% sure what you are saying here but if you have a TORR option then it must mean that at least part of the Sim has no TORR and you have the option to switch it on for the parts that are non-TORR. I'd be surprised if you were given the option to turn TORR off in sims that are 100% TORR in real life. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 17:49 #56476 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
In real life, TORR first appeared in the 1970s; I believe the first box to incorporate it was London Bridge. Historically , of course, signalmen had always had to return signal levers to danger (even when power frames came into existence) and the early panel boxes (either IFS or OCS) also needed that - logical if you think about it, since the switch that cleared the route/signal remained where it was until the signalman did something with it. The justification for TORR was to reduce signalman workload in particularly busy areas. What that really meant was that it made it possible to reduce the number of signalmen in busy areas. I suspect London Bridge would have required at least one more signalman's position, perhaps rather more, if TORR had not been provided. Because it required an awful lot of extra relays and wiring, it was expensive to provide and few relay panels ever had it (it isn't hard to do a CBA to work out how many pay packets you save over the design life of the box and set that against the extra cost). SSI, of course, can do TORR without any extra wiring or installation costs so it made sense to provide it. (I know the way signalmen are graded has changed but I suspect the reduced workload of a TORR fitted panel gets included somewhere along the line.) NX panels that used turn-push operation (some of the early ones and the WR boxes pre-Exeter and Westbury) couldn't have TORR, like OCS and IFS panels, because the switch had to be rotated back to the normal position to release a route. As Tom says, last wheel replacement has no bearing on TORR - it's something that has been available since relatively early days where required. (Engines assisting in rear would be a good reason to provide it. Which presumably is why the only last-wheel signal I ever worked was the up starter at North Pole Junction, which was on a fairly steep descending gradient on a line where assistance in rear wasn't authorised...) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 18:07 #56478 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
I've made a few minor alterations and expanded on alternative routes. " said: Trying not to be pedantic, are these axle counter installations officially included under TORR?I think you've got confused between Axle Counters and Last Wheel Replacement, and their relevance to TORR. Axle counters are an alternative to track circuits. Essentially A counter at the start of the track section counts the number of axles entering the section, and a counter at the end measures the number leaving the section. If these two numbers are equal, the section is clear, if they aren't, the section is occupied. Axle Counters are becoming more common across the network, but they are displayed in the same way as track circuits and do the same job. When discussing simulations on the forum, everyone tends to refer track circuits, however the area under discussion could use axle counters in reality. For example, I will use the phrase 'Track Circuit' in the remainder of this post, however you can substitute 'Axle Counter Section' and it would all amount to the same thing. Most signals are first wheel replaced, i.e. as soon as the track circuit ahead of the signal is occupied, the signal goes to red. However, some signals (generally where propelling* was common) the signal will remain clear until the last track circuit before the signal is unoccupied. This means that the whole train will pass the signal showing a proceed aspect, not just the front. Axle counters used as a method of detection are unrelated to the provision of TORR or Last Wheel Replacement. Last Wheel Replacement and Axle counters are covered on the Wiki. *Propelling is where a loco pushes a set of vehicles, rather than pulling. Propelling was generally only done when shunting around stations or yards. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 03/03/2014 at 18:10 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 19:03 #56480 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:In real life, TORR first appeared in the 1970s; I believe the first box to incorporate it was London Bridge. Historically , of course, signalmen had always had to return signal levers to danger (even when power frames came into existence) and the early panel boxes (either IFS or OCS) also needed that - logical if you think about it, since the switch that cleared the route/signal remained where it was until the signalman did something with it.London Bridge uses geographical relay interlockings which (some versions of?) come with TORR pre-wired by default. I suspect some links could be removed/added to disable TORR for a particular signal if necessary. GEC MkII rings a bell but I could well be muddled in my memory... " said: When discussing simulations on the forum, everyone tends to refer track circuits, however the area under discussion could use axle counters in reality. For example, I will use the phrase 'Track Circuit' in the remainder of this post, however you can substitute 'Axle Counter Section' and it would all amount to the same thing.I believe the generic term, regardless of detection equipment, is "track section" - at least that was what I was told to use! SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 20:18 #56482 | |
Steamer
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" said:Out of interest, what's the difference between a geographical relay interlocking and other relay-based (route relay?) interlockings? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 21:06 #56484 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:Out of interest, what's the difference between a geographical relay interlocking and other relay-based (route relay?) interlockings?I ought to write this down somewhere as I've explained elsewhere (not on this forum) what they are! Geographical interlockings are pre-wired, pre-configured, and pre-tested modules of relays that perform a specific function like a controlled signal, or a point end, or an overlap end point for example. Each module is a sealed box of a whole bunch of relays - sizes vary but let's say 1ft wide by 2ft tall by 8" deep maybe. At the back/top of each box are a number of multi-pin couplers - a point end would have three connections, for example (actually I think there might be ring cables too). Multi-core cables then connect modules together, laid out just like the track layout. Theoretically you then have a working interlocking very quickly. Customisation possible with certain contacts and bridging terminals exposed - I think mostly these would be for approach control and approach locking, though less needed in later variants as even this was built in to Westpac IV I think. However, the nature of the pre-configured modules means that there was a lot of redundancy in either relays or relay contacts as the module was designed to support all features, while not all might be used. So the per-product cost could be high, but installation/testing cost low. Westinghouse produced at least 4 variants (or improvements on the previous version); GEC at least two. No new installations this century as far as I know, as SSI is cheaper. SimSig Boss Last edited: 03/03/2014 at 21:07 by GeoffM Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Steamer |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 21:20 #56485 | |
Steamer
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Thanks for the explanation, I've always meant to ask how the interlockings actually work. How does the interlocking 'know' it's own arrangement, ie how to get from A to B? How does Route Relay work? I'm guessing from the name and your description of Geographical that each individual route has it's own 'chain' of relays, all of which must be in the correct position for the signal to clear? (As an aside, would it be worth splitting this off as a thread in it's own right? There's been quite a lot of drift from the original topic!) "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 03/03/2014 at 21:30 #56487 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks everyone for clearing up these differences for me. I'll need to re-edit the Wiki to remove confusion. Steamer, I agree this has gone off-topic far enough, so I created a new topic for you here. ![]() Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 20/04/2015 at 18:37 #71270 | |
intallonabile
![]() 24 posts |
Please someone can help me. I have launched Westbury version 4.4.2, timetable summer 2014, scenario : Standard. Simulations starts and TORR is on (when train leave the route the route remains on panel and i have to delete it) Where is the option to choose if i want to start my simulations in a different way ? thanks for the reply Diego from Italy Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 20/04/2015 at 18:45 #71271 | |
intallonabile
![]() 24 posts |
pheraps i write wrong. If i well comprise with TORR off i must delete the route after train passes it. But in any case my question remains...how can i set simulation without having to delet a route when train is gone. Thanks Diego Log in to reply |
New Commuter TT 20/04/2015 at 18:50 #71272 | |
Sacro
![]() 1171 posts |
" said:If i well comprise with TORR off i must delete the route after train passes it.Given that that's a statement rather than a question. Log in to reply |