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Managing Disruption 18/03/2014 at 13:44 #57292 | |
2W34
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Hi everyone! I appreciate this topic is rather vague, as a multitude of things can go wrong when running a timetable, and the crux of SimSig is causing the least disruption following an event such as signal failure etc. What I am after is some insight into what New Street PSB do in times of disruption. Bearing in mind even clearing a signal a minute late at the platform can have a knock on effect on other trains at New Street, how do signallers manage something like a points failure in the station throat? How do they avoid things stacking up left right and centre? Do they just start cancelling trains from the outside? I imagine at somewhere like Birmingham International it's more easily managed. So for those with inside knowledge of the goings on in the PSB your information would be greatly received :) Thanks Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 18/03/2014 at 15:00 #57297 | |
welshdragon
![]() 315 posts |
I know that if one end of the Cross City's fubar, they will terminate them at New St, the ATW's will terminate New St/Wolverhampton. If only one end is broken then you can send some services the short (or long way) round. The signallers won't do much for service recovery, as Train Running Controllers give them the information. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
Managing Disruption 18/03/2014 at 15:44 #57300 | |
JamesN
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It's not inside knowledge per se, but Welshdragon is correct - managing the disruption and service recovery is usually the domain of the Train Running Controllers and Train Service Managers at LNW(S) control. They will collectively have the overall say what services run and what doesn't in times of disruption, the signallers will just work to those instructions best they can. There are often set contingency plans for a failure at a single point or blocking of certain lines. Obviously with SimSig we don't have the luxury of control on the phone telling us how to manage the service, we have to work it out for ourselves. Mark has pointed out a couple of the really obvious ones. Diverting the Rugeley (2Hxx) to not run via Aston/Perry Bar can save a few minutes. Turning the Virgins at International if severely late can be an option, but the turnarounds at New Street are quite generous. One thing that isn't so easy with the chain is the diversion via Bescot (IE via a Hypothetical Walsall sim from New Street to Wolves), but it is commonly used if there is a problem between New Street and Wolves. Worcester/Hereford/Cardiff services can divert via Rowley Regis and Wrocester, but there is limited crew knowledge over the route so it's not used that often. In games I've hosted I normally try and have a controller, either myself or one of a couple of real life controllers I trust who knows what they're doing! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: 2W34, welshdragon, TimB2010 |
Managing Disruption 18/03/2014 at 22:07 #57338 | |
pbinnersley
![]() 431 posts |
" said:Hi everyone!At the first inkling of any problem on the Coventry line the Cross Country trains run direct to/from Leamington via Solihull. London Midland have got into a bad (if you live near Canley) habit or running trains non-stop from Coventry to New Street to make up time. I have been on Virgin trains that have run from Coventry into New Street via Aston and Soho Juncs. Similarly trains from Gloucester direction can run either via Selly Oak or the Camp Hill lines. Trains to/from Derby can divert via Wichnor Junc/Lichfield (if boxes are manned) or the Camp Hill line and either the Lifford Curve (very sharp) or reverse at Kings Norton. I was on a train to Coventry several years ago that reversed into the north tunnel and then went forward through a different platform. The underlying rule seems to be keep things moving as much as possible so you don't clog the station and transfer delays onto the other routes. Missing out a couple of stations is deemed worth it in the grand scheme of things as most lines have a frequent service. I recall notes in the 1970's sectional appendix that drivers given the "wrong route" at Stechford/ Soho and Perry Barr junctions should only query the route if it would cause them to miss a station. I can't find a similar note in my 1999 appendix. Peter. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 00:16 #57350 | |
Guts
![]() 595 posts |
In all honesty, in real life, trains just keeping running and Control will accept the delays and signallers will divert and replatform. Signallers don't gey penalised as you do in SimSig. Very few trains get turned short and certainly not Virgin Trains. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 07:31 #57352 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Quote:In all honesty, in real life, trains just keeping running and Control will accept the delays and signallers will divert and replatform.This reminds me of the difficulties I faced when I first began playing (Liverpool) Lime Street (another terminus-centred sim) as a relative newcomer to SimSig. Naturally I was eager to ensure each train eventually arrived at the platform specified by its timetable. However, due to unforeseeable delays it resulted in trains banking up everywhere. I became extremely frustrated playing this bottleneck sim and vented my feelings, a bit unfairly now in retrospect, on the timetable developers and manual writers in this thread. Out of it came the discovery that experienced signallers have few qualms about replatforming (assigning a train to a different platform), a term I'd not come across before. (It hasn't yet found its way into either glossary, maybe because its meaning is so obvious; however, it's the correct attitude towards replatforming which is important). Some quotes from the abovementioned thread: Quote: Quote:jc92 commented:maxand wrote: Quote: when waiting to catch my train from edinburgh waverley (for the record an east coast service from aberdeen to KX) i was told by station staff, its platform would not be decided, let alone displayed until about 20mins before arrival/departure, so certainly things arent always rigidpostal commented: Quote: PS On the platforming question most significant stations in the UK will have departure displays which leave the platform number blank until not long before the due departure. I haven't been on Lime Street since 1996 but I would guess that there wouldn't be a mad stampede from one platform to another if a train is re-platformed. If it runs like most other main terminals, there will be a crowd on the concourse, with the regulars hanging around the gate to the usual platform waiting for the display and Tannoy announcement to give details of their train. If the train is re-platformed the departure display (and announcer) won't advertise things as a re-platforming but will just announce that the 12:34 to Anywhere will depart from Platform wherever. The only people who will notice anything out of the ordinary will be the regulars hanging around the wrong gate. It is a similar situation with arrivals although that will affect far less people on the concourse and it doesn't really affect the people of the incoming train bar causing creatures of habit a twinge or two.So I guess that sums it up for me - one shouldn't be afraid of re-platforming trains if it means speeding up the flow. If one has the luxury of two platforms for through trains (e.g., in Brighton sim, Haywards Heath station, 1 & 2 for Down trains and 3 & 4 for Up trains), I don't hesitate to replatform the next train if for example I'm stuck with two trains joining at the other platform. AFAIK there is no penalty for doing this. Last edited: 19/03/2014 at 07:36 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 10:12 #57355 | |
andyb0607
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I remember when we visited New Street box to gather the information for this sim. A unit full of passengers had failed in the throat leaving New St which meant they couldn't access P1-P5 from that end. We thought our visit was going out the window, but they still let us in to watch what was going on. The organised chaos that followed was amazing. A train sent to rescue the unit and push it back to the platform ignored signallers request and went on his merry way, delaying things even more. Was definitely a case of make it up as you go along but once the train was eventually rescued things were all back to plan by the time we left the box! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 14:51 #57363 | |
Forest Pines
![]() 525 posts |
" said:If one has the luxury of two platforms for through trains (e.g., in Brighton sim, Haywards Heath station, 1 & 2 for Down trains and 3 & 4 for Up trains), I don't hesitate to replatform the next train if for example I'm stuck with two trains joining at the other platform. AFAIK there is no penalty for doing this.There's a "train arrived at opposite platform" penalty which is less severe than the "train arrived at wrong platform" penalty. My local major station, Bristol TM, is perhaps unusual in that platforms are announced well in advance - each platform's screen shows the next 3 trains, which on the even-numbered platforms there can mean several hours in advance. However the signallers are never reluctant to replatform if things haven't gone to plan, and it's not unusual to hear an automatically triggered platform alteration announcement for a train which isn't due for maybe 30-60 minutes. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 16:58 #57367 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts |
" said:To expand slightly on Forest Pines' post: In the Performance Analysis, there are three categories for platforms. Correct, Opposite, and Incorrect. Opposite is where the platform concerned is an island, and you've sent the train along the other side of the island. For example, sending a train into Platform 1 at Haywards Heath when it's booked in 2 would be classed as 'Opposite'. Sending it to 4 would be Incorrect. I don't know what the scoring equation is, but I'd hope that a wrong platform counts less than the delay minutes caused by waiting for the correct platform to become available. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 23:02 #57396 | |
Airvan00
![]() 129 posts |
When I replatform, I edit the timetable. I don't know if this is the correct procedure. ( I don't save the amended timetable.) editing the timetable is my equivalent of announcing a platform change. I try and do it in plenty of time. I end up with 100% correct platform usage at the end of the day. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Managing Disruption 19/03/2014 at 23:15 #57399 | |
JamesN
![]() 1591 posts ![]() |
" said:When I replatform, I edit the timetable. I don't know if this is the correct procedure.I wouldn't worry about editing the platform unless you really really care about your score - it's just extra work which isn't your priority in times of disruption. Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 20/03/2014 at 06:00 #57417 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
Personally, I tend not to worry about editing the timetable to reflect a platform alteration, but I'd agree that it's a sensible representation of the need to advise station staff. Perhaps the 'wrong platform' penalty should be accompanied by an extended dwell time at somewhere like New Street, waiting for a trainload of dischuffed passengers to shuffle over to the new platform ![]() Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 20/03/2014 at 10:59 #57438 | |
pedroathome
![]() 906 posts |
" said:and it's not unusual to hear an automatically triggered platform alteration announcement for a train which isn't due for maybe 30-60 minutes.And the rest. I have known there be platform alteration announcements about 2 - 3 hours before the train was due to arrive (One would have to be very determined to be there that early for their train) James Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 20/03/2014 at 17:05 #57477 | |
onlydjw
![]() 456 posts |
I've known platform alteration announcements at Lincoln over 12 hours before the train is due - simply because it was at that point when someone amended the CIS, which then decided to make the announcement. Some of the faces on the platform were quite interesting...
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 29/03/2014 at 21:05 #57996 | |
Mr Mystery
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Hi, The other day I was on a Virgin Euston-New St service which came to a stop just past Adderley Park. Turned out there was plastic tangled up in the overhead wires, so we had to wait there for an hour. Would it be possible to simulate this situation? Also, the train was a voyager - any idea why it took so long to get permission to move past the obstruction? Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 29/03/2014 at 21:34 #57999 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts |
" said:Hi,One would imagine they had to remove the obstruction in order to determine that it was indeed only plastic and not something more metallic. Overhead electric isolation, competent person to remove it, etc, etc. SimSig Boss Last edited: 29/03/2014 at 21:34 by GeoffM Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 29/03/2014 at 21:46 #58001 | |
Stephen Fulcher
![]() 2055 posts |
If there is something hanging down from the overheads then you would not want even a diesel train passing underneath it. Imagine what could happen if it was metallic and scraped the top of a train - 25kv to earth through the diesel train via the bodywork. Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 31/03/2014 at 15:28 #58075 | |
Mr Mystery
![]() 25 posts |
Ahh yeah, that's true, thanks. Though I assume they knew it was plastic and not metal as they announced it to us fairly quickly. I imagine if it was big enough it might still get caught on the train. Thanks Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 31/03/2014 at 15:53 #58076 | |
Sacro
![]() 1171 posts |
Most things are conductive at a high enough voltage.
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Managing Disruption 06/04/2014 at 18:33 #58501 | |
TimB2010
![]() 77 posts |
In my time on the platforms at New Street, all hell could break loose at any time due to the simplest thing, and that added to the chaos if you were a passenger, or the fun from my point of view. The Cross City route is usually split into two at BHM when chaos happens - services can be turned back early towards BHM at various locations on route on both halves, so a revised service comes into effect at the discretion of the route controllers. Cross Country will divert trains away from problem areas if they can, although this can cause more problems. I remember one occasion when the Gloucester line was closed due to OHLE damage at Bournville and a VXC Voyager was sitting in platform 10 waiting to go to Bristol, with another unit to the south. VXC asked the traincrew to divert via Stourbridge Junction and Worcester Shrub Hill, but the Train Manager didn't sign that route (her route refresh day had been taken away), the train had to stand until a pilot crew could be found. On one occasion, we had a class 350 sit down at Stechford, and the assisting unit approached from Birmingham International. It was another 350, and when it coupled up to the failure, it stood foul of the junction. All VWC services at that point were sent via Stafford and up the Trent Valley to Rugby, having just come from Wolverhampton. It really depends on the nature of the problem as to what the response is, but in the most part, it comes down to making the best of a bad job and running trains as best you can. Hope this gives you some insight. Tim Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 06/04/2014 at 18:35 #58503 | |
TimB2010
![]() 77 posts |
" said:Personally, I tend not to worry about editing the timetable to reflect a platform alteration, but I'd agree that it's a sensible representation of the need to advise station staff. Perhaps the 'wrong platform' penalty should be accompanied by an extended dwell time at somewhere like New Street, waiting for a trainload of dischuffed passengers to shuffle over to the new platform...assuming that the platform staff on the new platform waited for all of them to come over! ;-) Log in to reply |
Managing Disruption 06/04/2014 at 21:11 #58508 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
" said:In my time on the platforms at New Street, all hell could break loose at any time due to the simplest thing, and that added to the chaos if you were a passenger, or the fun from my point of view.It used to go pear-shaped at Bristol fairly often when I was a Signalman there. A bit like Brum in that BTM is a fairly major railway crossroads, and there are a couple of ways to get round problems. When things did go wrong the phrase "can't take a joke shouldn't have joined" was used. Along with jokes about the "dolly with the trolly" signing the road as well as the Driver and Guard. Log in to reply |