Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been

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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 12:36 #60618
maxand
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1637 posts 		Occasionally I need to view a particular train's TT without amending it. E.g., from the Train List I would select Timetable Options > Edit > Location List.

If I click OK to close the window without amending anything I still get the message "The driver has now been told of the amended timetable". When I first began playing SimSig I found this very confusing until it dawned on me that the software assumes that this window was opened for editing, not merely peeking.

I open Location List when I need to see the full TT, whereas simply opening Show Timetable omits previous waypoints.

Of course, if I click Cancel instead of OK, the driver message isn't displayed, but how many beginning SimSig players would be aware of this distinction?

I class this as an issue rather than a feature request, as in its present form it is able to cause confusion.

(The ideal coding solution IMO would be to create a boolean flag which starts at 0 and is set to 1 as soon as anything in the TT is amended, then use the flag to determine whether this message should appear. In this way, clicking OK will not bring up the message if nothing has been amended.)

An alternative would be to introduce the new menu option View Location List, in the Train List Timetable Options submenu, also to have a button named View below the Edit button on the Timetables tab of the Timetable List window.

The Wiki Timetable Editor - New train timetable does not mention this problem; I'm not inclined to update it if this forum does not support it.
Last edited: 17/05/2014 at 12:40 by maxand
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 12:40 #60619
jc92
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3701 posts 		" said:
Occasionally I need to view a particular train's TT without amending it. E.g., from the Train List I would select Timetable Options > Edit > Location List.
You've hit the nail on the head. You are opening the timetable EDITOR. to view a trains timetable you can Just click on the describer berth, or use a Sticky (personal favourite?). I can't see a situation (other than editing or amending) where you would need to use the timetable editor purely to view details of a trains timetable?

" said:
The Wiki Timetable Editor - New train timetable does not mention this problem; I'm not inclined to update it if this forum does not support it.
That is related to writing a timetable, not editing it or viewing details "under the skin" and therefore doesn't relate to what you are wanting from the situation.

Question: why do you need to see previous timing points? - we might be able to give some feedback on that if theres other ways round it
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 17/05/2014 at 12:43 by jc92
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 12:42 #60620
maxand
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1637 posts 		If you read my post you'll see I said
Quote:
I open Location List when I need to see the full TT, whereas simply opening Show Timetable omits previous waypoints.
Unfortunately, the deeply buried Location List is still the quickest way I know to do this.

(added)
Quote:
Question: why do you need to see previous timing points? - we might be able to give some feedback on that if theres other ways round it
Well, one good reason is when the TT writer decides to use the same headcode with different suffixes (is that the correct term?) for two or more trains. E.g., 1Z31-1 (fictitious headcode) terminates. A bit falls off it to become 0Z31-1 which runs around, then another bit named 0Z31-2 latches onto the front, and the whole shebang becomes 1Z31-2. SimSig doesn't want to know about any trains not currently in the sim, so it either displays the TT for 1Z31-1 when I want to find out what's going to happen to 1Z31-2, or after it becomes 1Z31-2 and refuses to budge, I want to see what trains were supposed to create it, so I might need to know where 0Z31-2 originated.

It's no good creating a sticky containing "1Z31-1" or "1Z31-2" and clicking on these links; all SimSig shows me is which flavour of 1Z31 it's currently interested in - really helpful. So what do I do? Look up the Simplifier? What if 0Z31-2 arrived outside the Simplifier's meagre 2-hour display limit? How many clicks will it take to find it? Similarly, how many clicks will it take to bring up arrdep.txt and search it? No, the fastest method for me is still to delve into Timetable List for the Location List of that particular train.

BTW, I always create a sticky note for trains that detach/join/etc. but as you can see, they don't lead me to the information I need.

It would be appreciated if the developers offered an option for stickies so that Shift-clicking a headcode displayed the full Location List (made non-editable, i.e., read-only), in addition to clicking it to bring up Show Timetable. It would also be appreciated if, when a headcode containing a suffix is displayed in full on the stickie, the unique Location List is selected. I.e., if the player enters "1Z31-2" into the sticky, the Location List will match that particular train. Naturally this cannot be applied to Shift-clicking a headcode in a TD berth as this is limited to 4 characters.

There are other reasons, of course, for wanting to see a train's full Location List when it isn't on the panel, e.g., to compare it with that of another train. In the sim I'm currently playing (Exeter Summer Sunday 1980, "For newbies and pro's (sic) alike"I have clicked a train's headcode to view its TT and am shown that of another train with the same headcode at the opposite end of the sim, which can be quite unnerving. Usually it's because SimSig doesn't care too much about suffix numbers.

I'll try to remember to use timing point instead of waypoint from now on - I'm not flying a jet.

I'd like this discussion to stay on-topic if possible. Its purpose is to pinpoint another source of confusion and suggest remedies for it.
Last edited: 17/05/2014 at 13:46 by maxand
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 13:40 #60627
Steamer
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3997 posts 		" said:

Of course, if I click Cancel instead of OK, the driver message isn't displayed, but how many beginning SimSig players would be aware of this distinction?
Cancel is a standard instruction to discard any changes, OK is a standard instruction to save changes. It crops up just about everywhere.

I agree it would be good if SimSig always differentiated between suffixes, which would solve most of those problems. I'm still not sure why (assuming you can see the correct TT) you'd need to see previous locations for a train already in the simulation though.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 13:48 #60628
maxand
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1637 posts 		Quote:
I'm still not sure why (assuming you can see the correct TT) you'd need to see previous locations for a train already in the simulation though.
I've just amended my earlier post to include a couple of situations where this might be helpful. Apologies if you missed this.

Quote:
Cancel is a standard instruction to discard any changes, OK is a standard instruction to save changes. It crops up just about everywhere.
That's exactly my point. If no changes were made, there's no need for the driver to be informed. If you were the signaller and just wanted to look up a train's whole route in real life, would you pick up the phone and tell the driver you'd amended his timetable?
Last edited: 17/05/2014 at 13:51 by maxand
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 13:59 #60629
Steamer
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3997 posts 		I've seen them, and as I said, it looks like they would be solved if SimSig always read the suffix and displayed the correct TT. If the train is in the area, the show TT window will help identify where it is. If the train isn't in the area, the full location list will be shown, with 'No history' shown in the 'Last reported status' section. Because activities disappear of the Show Timetable window when they've been carried out, you know what still needs to be done.

For example, and this is assuming SimSig always showed the TT as you wrote it:

1Z01-1 arrives, 0Z01-1 comes off, 0Z01-2 drops on, train forms 1Z01-2.

Clicking 1Z01-2 will show 'No history' until 1Z01-1 has completed all activities. Clicking 1Z01-1 will show activities yet to be carried out (and being carried out, in the case of divides/joins), so any outstanding activities still need to happen before the train will form 1Z01-2. When the activities have been carried out, 1Z01-1 will show 'No history' and a full location and activity list.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 17/05/2014 at 14:17 #60631
maxand
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1637 posts 		Quote:
If the train isn't in the area, the full location list will be shown, with 'No history' shown in the 'Last reported status' section. Because activities disappear of the Show Timetable window when they've been carried out, you know what still needs to be done.
Thanks - that's helpful. I honestly haven't noticed this happening when I play but will look out for it.
Last edited: 17/05/2014 at 14:18 by maxand
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Don't show TT as "amended" unless it really has been 24/05/2014 at 23:04 #60920
Hawk777
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386 posts 		" said:
[quote="maxand" post=60618]I'm still not sure why (assuming you can see the correct TT) you'd need to see previous locations for a train already in the simulation though.
Previous locations I would not find useful. Previous activities, most definitely useful! Train 1A01 pulls into station, and detaches engine 0A01 from the front to head off into a yard somewhere for replacement. I wander over to the station and click 1A01’s TD. The timetable shows up with no mention of 0A01 anywhere, because the detach activity has already finished—I have no way to find out that 0A01 even exists, never mind what its headcode is! Of course there is the train list, but that’s both non-prototypical and also not helpful because it doesn’t show the order of the trains in the platform. I generally go through F4 instead of the train list at this point to look up 1A01’s timetable, but both are intended as editors, not viewers.
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