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| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 10:39 #606 | |
caedave
142 posts |
Now we all have a good idea of what the signaler at the panel or workstation does and what the box manager does. What about the rest. We hear terms like "Controller" and "Regulator". What are they, what do they do? Where do these fit with a box management and function structure? Dave M. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 10:39 #6200 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Now we all have a good idea of what the signaler at the panel or workstation does and what the box manager does. What about the rest. We hear terms like "Controller" and "Regulator". What are they, what do they do? Where do these fit with a box management and function structure? Dave M. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 11:16 #6201 | |
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Neil
23 posts |
http://www.lococarriage.org.uk/control.htm Regards, Neil Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 11:20 #6202 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
caedave said:Regulator is historical. Even back in mechanical days there were certain places where a supervisor-graded person would be stationed in a signalbox to coordinate the working round about, receiving reports of train running from designated boxes on the approach and giving instructions re routing, platforming & precedence to the signalmen in his local area. When large power boxes appeared on the scene it was only natural to continue the tradition, albeit many instructions could now be called out direct. (This was certainly the case in the Great Eastern scheme of 1949, with regulators at Liverpool St and Stratford but none at Bethnal Green, Mile End, Bow Jc, Forest Gate or Ilford Stn to my certain knowledge, I don't know if there wre any more further out.) The LMR powerboxes from Euston to Rugby inclusive all had such a post, by now with certain powers to authorise emergency working (use of goods lines by passenger trains, for example, or direct authority for blocking lines for an OHLE isolation). Their authority extended to delaying trains to give others precedence in the cause of overall benefit of the service (I frequently knew Jim Peplar at Willesden let a freightliner out ahead of an all-stations in the evening peak, knowing the stopper would take a couple of yellows before Harrow but after that the 'liner would run away from him). As boxes got larger this position got an ever-higher grade, so it metamorphosed into a box manager, presumably with even greater powers. Control (often known as "The Brains"  was a sort-of super regulator for a wider area. The Control Office received reports of train running from designated boxes and made regulating decisions where necessary (there were differences between railways/regions - on the LMR signalmen could hardly blow their nose without Control authority whereas on the GN they had complete freedom to margin goods trains between the passengers - and, of course, responsibility for any delays). In the early days Control had 4 sections. Traffic Control handled individual wagons, directing empties to be loaded and monitoring what was on hand to be cleared. There were separate Loco and Traincrew Controls, monitoring what was happening in those departments. Steam locos needed a lot more daily maintenance than modern traction, so Loco control was kept busy. And of course traincrews needed proper rest and PNB (Physical Needs Break) arrangements, which proabably meant loco & crew availability would be quite different, even within the same shift. Train Control was the one who made regulating decisions. As you can see, all would be involved in cancelling trains or running extras; all 4 would sit side-by-side in the Control Office. A Control would usually have several groups of controllers, each with their own area.TOPS made Traffic Control pretty much redundant. Modern traction made it fairly easy to sort-of merge Loco and Traincrew Control. I suspect the modern move to active management of maintenance requirements has led to them separating again, with Maintrol looking after much of the former Loco issues (I could be wrong there, having been out of the industry for some time now). Hope that makes sense. And of course I may have it wrong about the modern railway. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 16:01 #6215 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
A modern control is now slightly different.Each Train operating company has it's own control. This is usually made up of controllers who deal with the ral time running of their companies services which inculdes dealing with train crew & rolling stock. It is their responsibility to recover the late running of servcies, deal with faults. failures and incidents affecting their trains. Network Rail has it's own control (Sometimes located with the TOC's) which comprises of Train Running controllers & Incident controllers. They are responsible for maintaining the infrastructure and providing pathways for all TOC & FOC's. So if a set of points fails, then they task an S&T team to attend. If a train derails, they liase with the emergency services & response staff. They are also the final resting place for regulatory desicions, so if a signaller is unsure as to which service to give priority to, then it comes to control to decide. In times of disruption, NR can take the lead and insist on which trains the TOC controller runs/cancels etc. Obviously this is just a quick, simplified overview, anyone wanting more indepth details...... ask someone else :lol: If anyone is really interested in how it operates then why not contact your nearest control & ask for a visit. Most will welcome you with open arms as it is not ofetn we get to show of our black art with other railwaymen, let alone outsidrs! Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 21:37 #6219 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
Carlisle had a large control office which was closed when the Powerbox opened in around 1973. It looked alot like the panel that replaced it.
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| Who, What and Where 26/01/2010 at 22:04 #6220 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Thank you all. Besides a general interest my main reason for the question was that at times, items that come up on the Wish List do not appear to me to fall under the duties of the signaler. This would be true in the real world but does point to the compromises that have to be made to SimSig that make it more than just a constant timetable run. Perhaps for multi-play games we need an add-on panel for a TOC, FOC, NR controller. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 27/01/2010 at 09:08 #6232 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
caedave said:items that come up on the Wish List do not appear to me to fall under the duties of the signaler.You're right (or at least, I agree). Signallers don't allocate stock, ask for rescue locos, etc. They get told that that is happening. caedave said: Perhaps for multi-play games we need an add-on panel for a TOC, FOC, NR controller.There is a developer-only facility to do certain things such as failing tracks (right- or wrong-side), signals, points, etc. I do have plans to make this public so hosts can SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 27/01/2010 at 10:42 #6235 | |
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Gloriousnse
20 posts |
caedave said:Perhaps for multi-play games we need an add-on panel for a TOC, FOC, NR controller.I think that was "sorta/kinda" what was suggested with the "depot manager" add-on on the other thread? At least at present though isn't it just back to the person running the MP game to come up with that solution, as if he's liased with the other control? I suppose if it were a busy sim with lots of issues you could have a separate person not signalling, not hosting, but watching train progress whilst fulfilling the role of TOC/FOC controller. He'd still have to rely on the host to do anything like creating a "spare" ECS TT to pick up a diagram & rely on the host passing info on to signallers though. I guess if you used MSN or similar he could liase with the host direct without the signallers getting a "heads up" of what was coming? Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 27/01/2010 at 12:14 #6236 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
GM said:There is a developer-only facility to do certain things such as failing tracks (right- or wrong-side), signals, points, etc. I do have plans to make this public so hosts can be evil create realistic scenarios.Oh God. Please, PLEASE, don't let Kurt get at that. He's bad enough with his normal timetables. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 27/01/2010 at 13:00 #6239 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
The original intent was for testing (amongst other things). When I say "scenario" I mean during runtime, not in the setting up of closed lines etc. So when running a multiplayer the host turns all random failures off and creates his own which are suitable and appropriate for the end user who has to deal with the problem. The host is - similar to what GNSE says - not signalling but being the Dungeon Master of the simulation. This can also include the management of stock - terminating a train short, running an extra service, or whatever.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 27/01/2010 at 20:14 #6247 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
On the North London Line (where I work), there are 3 common parts of control the signallers communicate with. 1) Train Running Controller They basically make the decisions about regulating passenger and freight trains which are well off their "path" (timetable). Mainly to try and reduce delays occurring at other strategic locations (eg: Freight trains waiting to get into Acton Yard blocking the NLL). They also are a common point of contact for any information you receive that might affect the wider railway. There is one of these for the NLL. 2) Freight Controller They keep an eye on all the freight traffic in the area, and make sure that the trains and locos can get through an area without causing disruption (see above) and also avoiding disruption to them. At Stratford NLL, if the freights get delayed, we commonly can have many freight trains congregating at once, and the freight controller's job is to watch this possibility line up, and then start a pro-active way of stopping this happening! Commonly, this includes queuing freight traffic along the Great Eastern main line. The freight controller I speak to covers the NLL and the West Anglia (WA) Inner area. 3) Incident Control Basically, reporting incidents/failures/etc to, who allocate additional work out to S&T, P-Way and other staff on top of the usual duties. I do not know how wide an area they cover. All of these positions are in the same location, and therefore will communicate with each other so you don't have to warn all 3 about a points failure that will disrupt the whole service! ;-) In the Control location there are many controllers all speaking to one another. I know that the controllers I deal with are in the Anglia Integrated Control Centre, along with people covering the Great Eastern & West Anglia areas. I believe there is a strong TOC presence as well, so that any information can get between NR and the TOC as soon as possible :-) Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 01:05 #6248 | |
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Budgie
3 posts |
Hi Matt. It's Ray from Control ..... I have to say that your description of Control and their functions was brilliantly written, but I would just like to correct or update a few bits or pieces: 1) Train Running Controller At present as you say there are 3 of these, but this will change as from March 1st when the re-org comes into force. From that date there will be only 1 Train Running Controller and they will control and oversee all train movements in the whole of Anglia ... Liverpool Street - Kings Lynn/Norwich/Southend Victoria/Clacton/Harwich and all branch lines ..... NLL between Stratford and Richmond and Willesdeen Junction - Mitre Bridge Junction ...... Barking to Gospel Oak ...... Fenchurch Street - Shoeburyness and of course the newly opened East London Line! They will only assist the Signaller with regulating train services on NLL. Regualtion on GE and WA and branches will be done directly between the Signaller and Train Companies Train Running Controllers except the services operated by Cross Country and East Midlands Trains, there the Signaller still has to contact Network Rail because these companies are not involved in the re-org! C2C regulation will be done between the Signaller, TOC & SSM as per the situation now! 2) Freight Controller The Freight Controller at present actually delas with all freight services running within East Anglia and not just NLL & WA and this continue under the re-org, but they will also now be responsible for the regulation of Freight services. 3) Incident Controller At present there are 4 of these. 3 based at Liverpool Street AIC, they cover i) Liverpool Street - Cambridge Heath/Chitts Hill (South of Colchester)/Southend Victoria/Southminster/Braintree/Sudbury plus barking - Woodgrange Park: ii) Chitts Hill - Norwich/Yarmouth/Lowestoft/Felixstowe/Clacton/Sheringham plus Stansted Airport/Kings Dyke (Just off the Peterborugh Area)- Kings Lynn/Ely/Cambridge: iii) Cambridge Heath - Stansted Airport/Chingford/Hertford East/Enfield Town plus the NLL and Temple Mills area plus Gospel Oak - Woodgrange Park and 1 based at Upminster who covers the entire C2C route. Under the re-org there will be 3 Incident Controllers and all based at Liverpool Street AICC, covering i) The entire GE network - Liverpool Street northwards including branches: ii) The Entire WA network - Liverpool Street northwards including branches: iii) NLL, C2C and East London Line (NLL includes the T&H). Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 08:52 #6251 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
I take it you going fully intergrated then Ray... We're doing our best to avoid it in Kent!
Noisynoel Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 10:45 #6252 | |
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caedave
142 posts |
Noel. Not sure I agree but, it should give a chance to compare the two systems in operation. Though it may not always produce the correct answer, I'm from the "One brain in charge" side. More people equals more chance of conflict and more chance of delay. Dave M. Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 10:52 #6253 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I remember back in the '80s we found a phone number of 'control' in Aberdeen in the Dundee phone book- so we used to ring them up and ask what was on 1E41 (I think it was - Aberdeen to KX overnight- no sleepers) every Saturday and if it was a Class 40 (or on one occasions a CL 40 + 26) we trooped off to Arbroath and did it back to Dundee. Some were happy to tell us some were not -though normally 'I'm ringing from Dundee was sufficent to pass any "who are you" questions'. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 19:51 #6263 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
Good description Matt, I will certainly be having a lot more to do with AIC now, sure enough train running control have been on the phone quite a bit today! Ray I am sure I will be speaking to you on the phone at some point in the future! Another SimSigger in the anglia region!! Daz Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 20:20 #6266 | |
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Budgie
3 posts |
Yes NoiseNoel, we are going fully intergrated. We tried to fight it as well, but once we were told we had no choice, we were snookered really! Daza7789, were abouts do work you work then? Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 28/01/2010 at 20:35 #6269 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
Was at acton canal wharf, training in willesden HL at the moment, hopefully pass it out in a couple of weeks, not sure if you deal with that end of the NLL. Daz Log in to reply |
| Who, What and Where 29/01/2010 at 16:31 #6312 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Just to put this into historical perspective, when a very senior railway official was shown the new York signalbox (shown here http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=40829 )in 1951, he is said to have exclaimed: "It's not a signalbox, it's a Control!"
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| Who, What and Where 31/01/2010 at 21:34 #6370 | |
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Budgie
3 posts |
Daza7789 ...... I'm the NR Controller for the entire NLL, so I'm bound to speak to you in the very near future. I normally say on the phone "Hi it's Ray from Control " Log in to reply |