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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 15/02/2010 at 15:10 #720 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Two belgian intercity trains crashed in the early part of rush hour this morning. It is feared that there is around 20 Dead from the crash. The most seriously injured are being treated at the lineside before being taken to hospital, and doctors have even had to carry out amputations at the line side. The trains collided near Halle, 15 KM southwest of brussels. One train was travelling from Quievrain to Liege and the other form Leuven to Braine-le-Comte. According to the Flemish TV channel VTM, one of the trains may have ignored a stop signal. The high speed line between Brussels and Paris is closed for the day. And all Eurostar services between London and Brussels are also cancelled. In Ireland RTE had this report http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0215/belgium.html while in the UK BBC had this report http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8515855.stm Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 15/02/2010 at 15:10 #6720 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Two belgian intercity trains crashed in the early part of rush hour this morning. It is feared that there is around 20 Dead from the crash. The most seriously injured are being treated at the lineside before being taken to hospital, and doctors have even had to carry out amputations at the line side. The trains collided near Halle, 15 KM southwest of brussels. One train was travelling from Quievrain to Liege and the other form Leuven to Braine-le-Comte. According to the Flemish TV channel VTM, one of the trains may have ignored a stop signal. The high speed line between Brussels and Paris is closed for the day. And all Eurostar services between London and Brussels are also cancelled. In Ireland RTE had this report http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0215/belgium.html while in the UK BBC had this report http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8515855.stm Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 16/02/2010 at 08:39 #6742 | |
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mfloyd
189 posts 
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Yes, looks pretty bad. Seem to be confirming driver error this morning. Was at St Pancras yest - should have been travelling to Brussels  No holiday but small price when you see the carnage.
Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 16/02/2010 at 10:15 #6747 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
Very sad indeed. Let's hope that the death toll doesn't rise much more.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 16/02/2010 at 10:22 #6749 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
As of 6 o'clock this morning the Irish news were reporting 28 confirmed deaths with many more still in a critical condition.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 17/02/2010 at 20:24 #6783 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Let's give credit where it's due to NR. They chose TWPS against the more performant standard European system because it was relatively quick, easy and cheap to install and could be added on to the existing proven AWS system. It has its flaws but the main thing was they got it installed fast across the network and it is preventing SPADS every day. We see that in Belgium there were/are arguments between the EU, Belgian Railways and whoever else about why sufficient money was not forthcoming to install the standard European system in all their trains to prevent SPADS. The result is an horrific crash with terrible loss of life and injuries. Well done NR - you got it right. Ray Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 17/02/2010 at 22:40 #6785 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
The systems the UK have in place are the only ones that can offer a speed control in MPH, all others are KPH. But when you look Iranrod Eireann's ATP and CAWS systems Which is in KPH and works really well. So well that Ireland can boast the safest railway in the world.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 02:43 #6786 | |
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razgriz33
42 posts |
you can have the best automatic routing in the world. still doesnt help when a driver passes red mistakedly, The trains look like they dissipated the energy as designed, advancements in crash testing mean that there is more chance of survival. i hope this shows by those injured pulling through, Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 07:26 #6788 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
That's the whole point of TWPS Daniel. NR does not have Automatic Train Control installed (not even on CTRL!) whereby control of the train is not with the driver and human error is eliminated. TWPS is really a sophisticated train stop sytem which will stop a train from 70 mph if the driver approaches a signal at danger at an inappropriate speed.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 10:13 #6792 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
In fact, as I understand it, TPWS is even more effective than Pilotman suggests. It will stop a train from 70mph within the overlap. Above 70mph it will still bring the train to a stand but the stopping point may be beyond the overlap. In other words, when rail conditions are good and the braking is at the peak of performance, a train somewhat above 70mph may still stop within the overlap. And even if the train isn't stopped within the overlap, it may still stop clear of any obstruction - all depends what & where the obstruction is. Certainly by the time it reaches the obstruction, the speed of impact will have been drastically reduced. Of course the move away from flank protection in modern signalling schemes reduces the protection afforded to converging junctions, but that's an entirely different issue. Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 10:25 #6793 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Thanks for the elaboration K Barber. I thought it best just to establish the value of TWPS before getting into the nitty gritty!! There is also of course an enhanced system good for 100mph. All of which came about in part because of the awful Ladbroke Grove crash and some others around 10 years ago. As I said in my earlier post Railtrack/NR made a good decision to go for a silver system which was put in over 4 years compared to a Platinum system we would still be waiting for. I think it 99.9% likely that TWPS or an equivalent would have prevented the terrible crash in Belgium. Ray Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 12:31 #6794 | |
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razgriz33
42 posts |
ahhh haaaa i understand, they will see the same and react to safety flaws hopefully. Wikipedias take on TPWS Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 18:32 #6806 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Firstly, my heart goes out to all the family and friends of those who have lost their lives in this horrible incident. May those who have died rest in peace and those who have survived get well soon. It is unfortunate that these incidents happen. Regarding TPWS; I realise it is only a game however I know all too well the effectiveness of TPWS having driven a lot of the "Network West Midlands" route on BVE4 which has TPWS installed. At one point on the route (after 'Whitminster'  there is junction where trains either go towards via 'Riverside' or 'Salford Bridge' to 'Frankley Junction'. It is shortly before 'Salford Bridge' that there is a tight corner and the speed drops from around 75mph to 40mph! I have to admit to personally being caught out once or twice by the TPWS protection at this location and I also know of other players who have been caught out by this as it would appear that you have to reduce the speed rather suddenly to be going slow enough to satisfy the TPWS loops.Back to the real world, two RAIB reports that come to mind involving TPWS are Didcot and perhaps Esher of which both may be interesting reading for anyone interested. I even recall once actually being on a train pulling into a station and suddenly stopping with the front of the train only just in the platform. After having a word with the driver later on in the journey I think I understood him correctly when he said that TPWS kicked in with a brake demand so of-course we sat there for a while not only waiting for the brake demand to release (which usually takes two minutes) but also whilst the driver spoke to the signaller. At the end of the day, some might say that TPWS is a pain but in reality it could just save your life! Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 18/02/2010 at 20:01 #6807 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Well Daniel as I understand it Belgium already use the common European technology for this application. However the commuter train did not have the necessary equipment installed because of budget contraints.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 19/02/2010 at 14:32 #6817 | |
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taffy
28 posts |
UKTrainMan Just a minor correction, theTPWS Brake Demand time's out after 1 min from application. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: UKTrainMan |
| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 19/02/2010 at 16:35 #6818 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Of course it can be less than a minute if you use an unauthorised method - see RAIB Purley!! Just proves no system is absolutely fool proof!!
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 22/02/2010 at 08:09 #6863 | |
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taffy
28 posts |
True, there is always a way to over-ride systems, however, OnTrain Recorders will preserve this action to be used later in an inquiry.
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| Rush Hour train crash on Monday 15/02/10. 22/02/2010 at 09:51 #6864 | |
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Osprey
35 posts |
Personally I like the TPWS.At our depot there are posters up telling on the amount of crashes that it has prevented,think six or seven at last count.The really scary bit is reading the safety reports and finding some numb skull who has had a SPAD,TPWS does its job and brings him to a grinding halt then he resets the TPWS and carries on! There were two things at first that got loads of blokes . On the approach to PSRs when the TPWS ramps were set up needing a massive drop in speed well short of the PSR.These seem to be adjusted now.The other was after getting permission to pass a signal at danger forgetting to press the over-ride button! A few red faces there! After youve filled in the forms assoiciated with a TPWS brake application once you dont really want to do it again! It seems to be reliable,Ive only had it go off for no reason on two occaisons and have never had to isolate it completely due it going off constantly. Log in to reply |