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| Notes from Switzerland 26/02/2015 at 09:44 #69612 | |
kbarber
1742 posts |
Not quite sure where this should go; given the (not entirely serious, I suspect?  ) suggestion of Zurich HB I might've put it in sim wish list but here goes.Thanks to a very hospitable signalman (no names, no pack drill) who saw me looking at the panel while waiting for a train, I was invited into the box and given a quick run through how things work. The Integra 'Domino' panel is pretty much standard in Switzerland, with push-push NX working rather like ours. There are some substantial differences though. Although I noticed some overlaps, none seemed to extend through points. I suspect that simplifies the wiring very substantially (and likewise would simplify the data for a sim?) There are subsidiary signals at every set of points and all worked by NX routes, leading to a lot of buttons on even a relatively small panel. So far as I could see, each button could be either an entrance or an exit (a la Chicago Loop) and the route didn't extend beyond those limits. The bit of a movement between sets of points thus isn't positively signalled as part of a route (although, of course, it is indicated on track circuits). All shunt moves are under the control of a shunter who is, in turn, under the control of the Fahrdienst (Signalman, although I suspect 'Station Controller' might better represent the job). In many cases a main signal route will also extend through those sets of points, in which case the subsidiary acts as a preset shunt and the signalled route extends through the whole layout. (Again, I suspect, the interlocking logic is much easier.) There are a whole load of locations on the panel that can be used as possession limits; at each, there is a long, narrow indication at right angles to the track and adjacent to a signal button. To impose a block, the signalman presses and holds the signal button then presses a button elsewhere on the panel; the indicator is illuminated red and it is no longer possible to set that signal. To release the block, it's a similar procedure but using a second - 'release block' - button. Two of those blocks ensures the section between them can't be accessed. (I suspect, but didn't have time to enquire, that the stretch between such blocks becomes represented in the locking as being blocked so it isn't possible to set a route into it from another line.) When I was there, a section between two adjacent buttons was blocked (with red button covers in place) so S&T could attend to a points failure, but blocks were also in place adjacent to the crossovers that would be used to switch trains to/from another line; these had grey button covers and were imposed as an aid to the signalmen (and also for the workstation control). Swiss railways have long stretches of bidirectional signalling, and frequent crossovers (every mile or two, I would reckon, on the main transalpine routes). Between stations, all these can be set to work automatically. Although routes are called and buttons illuminated, they remain unset until the train is approaching at which time the next signal section will set up. It's even possible to call routes in both directions simultaneously, with a direction of flow mechanism ensuring you don't get a Mexican between crossovers. (In fact, with that kind of approach controlled routesetting, it's equally possible to set up fully-automatic single line working by setting routes through crossovers and relying on the direction of flow mechanism to regulate things.) A VDU workstation was also there and could be used to control the panel. The Swiss method is nothing like ours, though. Instead of NX working, clicking on the train description at certain locations brings up a drop-down list of routes towards which the train can be directed. Clicking on one causes the routes to call on the panel. Where alternative routes exist and one is affected by a block, the system is clearly able to hunt for the best possible free route and select it. I saw it used to direct a train onto the 'wrong' road so it could serve the platform nearest the station building; the system then continued to call 'wrong road' beyond the station, but by clicking on a right-road signal berth it immediately reset things through a suitable crossover. Again, the route didn't actually set until the train reached the trigger point. VDU indications were a thicker grey line for a route called but not yet set, green for a route set and red for the train location. Clearly this system allows control of a much larger area than a traditional panel (and auto routes allow a larger control area than we would normally give one person anyway). Fascinating stuff. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Oddjob, postal, uboat, maxand, Finger, Steamer |
| Notes from Switzerland 26/02/2015 at 12:37 #69620 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Keith. By coincidence I happened today to be watching Michael Portillo's Great Continental Railway Journeys, Series 1 Episode 4 ("Switzerland" and at about 23 minutes into it he is granted the rare privilege of entering the Control Tower which overlooks Zurich Station. It is just as you described.Fortunately he is not allowed to touch anything, otherwise the legendary reliability of the system might have been compromised.  A train is considered to be delayed if it is kept waiting for more than 3 minutes. Unfortunately I cannot locate a YouTube link to this particular episode. Maybe someone else will have more luck. Last edited: 26/02/2015 at 12:38 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Notes from Switzerland 26/02/2015 at 13:53 #69626 | |
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broodje
184 posts |
Interestingly enough that is roughly the same as the Dutch system works. The signaler can set a 'free to shunt' area where he/she hands over control of a section of track to the local shunter/driver. This is used a lot in (freight)yards. With this option a signaler can set a route into a specific yard road from the main line under a green or yellow signal. When the train arrives, the section is 'handed over' and the shunter can shunt the train of/runs around/do what he wants. It works a bit like the yellow signal on shunt signals in the UK (Bristol has one if I'm not mistaken) only for larger area's. (not for only one route) The VDU software you describe is also used over here. The main difference with the UK is that there are 'rules' that are called when a train arrives at a specific signal or point on the railway. For example, if train 3645 arrives at signal L451 then a route to platform 4A is set. If that train is x minutes early the rule is not called, and when the train is late and the route setting would clash with other rules, the rule is flagged red and the signaler has to decide what happens next. This is a different approach to the ARS in UK, where in essence not the timetable point holds the rules for what to do with a train, but the WTT itself holds the rules per train for it’s whole timetable. The former system has the advantage that you can easily see when trains will use a specific route at the same time and where clashes will happen. Hence the marking of problems when trains are running late. By the way, if you would like to play with the Dutch, or German signaling systems you could take a look at signalsoft.nl, (also in English) they sell a bunch of panel simulations. You can also try a few demo’s there. (I’m not affiliated with them, I do own 2 sims from them though) Log in to reply |
| Notes from Switzerland 26/02/2015 at 17:17 #69631 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Norway (and probably Sweden) also has these local shunting areas. In the areas I worked on (for my previous employer) the points were motor worked with a couple of buttons per point trackside - I think beside each point rather than on a panel with other points. The signals displayed a special local shunting aspect. Points in and out of the local area were locked normal. They also had a scripting-type of ARS in the Oslo and adjacent areas, again no delay consideration except IIRC did consider departure times from stations. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Notes from Switzerland 26/02/2015 at 23:26 #69643 | |
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Re620
17 posts |
It certainly would be an interesting/intensive location. Zurich HB shifts around 3000 trains a day. 16 platforms above and 10 below surface (8 of them being through platforms). Log in to reply |
| Notes from Switzerland 27/02/2015 at 02:20 #69644 | |
Mattyq
259 posts |
Firstly, I've played the TD3 version of Zurich HB. It is fun although, as we all know, not too realistic. I agree a Simsig version of it would be great. On the matter of "shunting zones", Queensland Rail in Australia have a system called "Zone Released Radio Shunting (ZRRS)". Where provided, a location is divided into one or more shunting zones which can be "released" to the local shunting staff by the Network Controller (see note below). The shunter uses numeric codes entered into his ZRRS-enabled two-way radio to control points and signals. The signal aspects are no different to normal signals and signals are still all "one-shot" (IE: must be re-cleared for each move). The whole point of the system is, at a location where excessive shunting regularly occurs that would put too much workload on the NC but not enough to employ a full-time Signaller, control of a zone of signals can be handed over to local shunting staff for the duration of shunting. (Note: With the exception of the Sydney metropolitan/interurban (Railcorp) area and the bulk of the state of Victoria, Signallers are almost non-existent. Tracks are managed by Network Controllers (NC or NCO) in large control centres dotted around the country. The position of NC/NCO combines the role of Train Controller and Signaller. In regional areas, one NC may manage several hundred route km's of track, depending on traffic density). Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Log in to reply |