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| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:38 #72669 | |
trolleybus
150 posts |
I've never been clear about whether one bell should be sent before TES. A competing product to Simsig as well as Wikipedia both say not. I've a booklet of LMS AB regulations in front of me that, so far as I can see, suggests that TES is not exempt form the call attention rule. TES does, however, differ from most codes in that the acknowledgement is not repetition but is achieved by putting the block indicator to train on line. I'm sure I've seen other sources that insist that CA must be used before TES, but they're not to hand. Is this one of those things that differed by company or location? Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:44 #72670 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
I've never heard of using call attention for TES, and an LMS set of regulations that state that you don't need to reply to TES sounds a bit odd (although possible if they're early). Train out of section is, of course, an entirely different kettle of fish, and only the GWR managed to choose the correct, minimum-effort arrangement 
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| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:44 #72671 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
I can't recall ever seeing any suggestion that some companies used Call Attention before Train Entering Section, but my knowledge is far from comprehensive. The GWR didn't; but, of course, the GWR didn't use Call Attention before Train Out Of Section either ( although I believe they did for Obstruction Removed). Edit: heh, I crossed with Danny252, who can probably guess why I assume the GWR sent 1 before Obstruction Removed! Last edited: 24/05/2015 at 21:46 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:45 #72672 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
currently (and for a long time) no call attention is used for TES. At one time the LMS and LNER did use call attention before TES. I'm not aware of the southern or GW ever using it, however after nationalisation with all regions reading the same book there was no CA before TES. " said: I've never heard of using call attention for TES, and an LMS set of regulations that state that you don't need to reply to TES sounds a bit odd (although possible if they're early).I've checked my 1925 LMS signalling regulations for Absolute block on double track lines and it does require call attention, with acknowledgement by commutator only. the concept is that having already accepted the train, the signalman is already waiting for 2 beats, whilst when offering or knocking out, some time may have passed by. there would certainly have been slack working at busy locations with TES being acknowledged purely by moving the commutator to save time, but this would not be an official method. a similar variation on the WR was to not call attention before knocking out, and the box in rear not acknowleding train out of section. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 24/05/2015 at 21:47 by jc92 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Steamer, trolleybus |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:49 #72674 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
a 1938 Information film which actually shows TES being preceeded by call attention https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CZHPZAUrBo "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Forest Pines, trolleybus |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 21:52 #72676 | |
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trolleybus
150 posts |
That was quick! So call attention has been used before two beats in the past on some companies but is no more. That's clear, then. Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 22:11 #72680 | |
Steamer
3986 posts |
According to the user manual for SIAM's Saltney Junction simulation, the LMS regulations survived in ex-LMS areas until 1960, when they were replaced with the BR Regulations. When did the rules regarding call attention and TOOS change? I'm fairly sure it's required now, but as mentioned the GWR didn't do it and neither did the Southern. Incidentally, a further LMS oddity was that 2-1 was acknowledged by a single beat. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 24/05/2015 at 22:12 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 22:14 #72683 | |
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trolleybus
150 posts |
@jc92. I'm not sure I follow. Your 1925 LMS signalling regulations (and my 1947 copy) both say that acknowledgement of TES is by commutator only, but you seem to imply that that's slack working. Or did you mean that it would be slack working elsewhere?
Last edited: 24/05/2015 at 22:15 by trolleybus Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 24/05/2015 at 23:31 #72687 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Signalmens' special instructions, appertaining to individual signal-boxes, superseded the block-book. In the video, certain elements are incorrect: 'the distant must be replaced as soon as the train has passed it' - this is impossible on AB, as the signalman would not be able to see the signal nor know where the train is, in relation to it. If a bell-signal, is to be acknowledged, this must be done before the commutator is turned. This is because the signalman receiving the bell-signal may not interpret it as it was sent and would reply with the wrong bell-signal. TOS methods could be different, according to how busy the SBs were and/or what block-signalling method was used. I believe the video to be an incorrect version of what really happened; it was made for the public! Adrian Last edited: 24/05/2015 at 23:37 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 25/05/2015 at 06:42 #72694 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Signalmens' special instructions, appertaining to individual signal-boxes, superseded the block-book.Rarely, if ever, would those have made modifications to basic things such as Train Entering Section and Out Of Section, unless there was some need for special working at the location. Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 25/05/2015 at 08:39 #72700 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
It would be relatively common to have a Special Instruction that told the signalman, for example, to send Train Approaching to the box in advance on receipt of TES from the box in rear; but instructions to change basic rules such as whether to acknowledge or not would be very unlikely to differ from the railway's block regulations. "The distant must be replaced as soon as the train has passed it" is certainly something which has appeared in block regulations, although there have probably been wording variations; of course, in practice, it means the signal has to be replaced as soon as thessignalman knows the train has passed it. Log in to reply |
| Call attention and train entering section 25/05/2015 at 09:16 #72703 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
I think the complexities here are huge. Vontrapp: the version of the regs I worked with (same vintage as yours I suspect) said that the distant must be replaced as soon as the signalman is aware that the train has passed the signal. In practice, in a normal-length section, that would mean when the train came in sight of the box, or as soon as the berth track of the home signal became occupied. In certain short sections, receipt of TES would indicate the train had passed the distant - it would be co-located with the home signal at the box in rear (It helped, of course, to have an idea how your mate worked - if he was in the habit of sending an early TES that might lead to a certain anguish for the driver!) At Acton Wells I had an IB in rear (a rare beast indeed) on the up, which by definition required full track circuiting throughout from Acton Central, so again there was a very clear indication when the train had passed the distant. (It also made that requirement a little academic, in that the first thing I'd do was restore the IB - it was also a mechanically-worked semaphore - which would restore the distant arm, before immediately putting the distant lever back.) Danny: I certainly knew SBSIs to exempt signalmen from 'Call Attention'. Stewarts Lane worked that way, when I relieved Latchmere Junction, and we at Latchmere had the exemption in our SBSIs as well so we weren't left working to different requirements. Apparently the South Eastern was like that, though it wasn't because Stewarts Lane was that busy, certainly when I visited the place. Trolleybus: I think Joe is saying that once the 1925 regulations were superseded, acknowledgement by commutator only changed from proper to loose working. Loose working, of course, made a bit of a nonsense of certain of the requirements anyway. On many of the sections I worked or visited (Midland, North London & West London mainly) it went as follows: Box A 'Knocks in' the Is Line Clear signal without Call Attention. B accepts by repetition and pegging line Clear. If not accepting B usually just ignores completely; some men would 'rock the needle' to TOL and back a few times to indicate positively they were refusing. (At Finchley Road they never would, on the up fast at least, because it was usual practice to refuse until Hendon rang it in on the 'overland' bell.) A sends TES B acknowledges by pegging TOL B sends TOS and drops the needle to Normal; no response from A. The North London had a way of working sometimes nowadays referred to as 'Sunday Block'. (It depended on boxes being exempted from booking all bell signals; certainly Acton Wells booked passing times only for freight trains only, hence a full Sunday's work would appear in the book as the day turn man signing on, then signing off 12 hours later.) Block at LC. A sends TES. B acknowledges by pegging TOL. B sends TOS, immediately sends 3-1-2 and pegs LC... every 20 minutes all through the day. At Acton Wells it was even looser on the up, because of that IB in rear and also the signals at Acton Wells itself had counter-sequential locking so you couldn't block the junction with a train that wouldn't then go forward. The SBSIs stipulated that the IB was not used in fog or falling snow. There was therefore both a switch and a button on the block shelf that transferred the Home Normal Contact (requires the home at danger before LC can be given) from the IB to the home. So the sequence went: Block from Acton Central to Acton Wells at LC. Block from Acton Wells to Willesden High Level Junction at LC. All up signals off. Fog switch in the 'fog' position. AC sends TES. AW does nothing; as soon as the train enters the track circuits between the two boxes, the needle goes over to TOL. Train passes AW, who sends TES to HLJ. (Actually we may not even have bothered with that!) Train passes HLJ, who gives TOS, 3-1-2, LC to AW AW gives TOS and 3-1-2 to AC, turns the commutator to TOL and immediately back to LC then puts the home back far enough for the contacts to make, whereupon the needle goes to LC, and pulls the lever back over again... then goes back to his newspaper for another 20 minutes. When I think about it these days, it makes even my hair curl! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, Steamer, meeko |
| Call attention and train entering section 26/05/2015 at 00:20 #72720 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
Aye agree.
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| Call attention and train entering section 26/05/2015 at 00:21 #72721 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
I agree.
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| Call attention and train entering section 26/05/2015 at 00:30 #72722 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
As for Is Line Clear: Earles Sidings SB, has special instructions to delay the sending of this, until the train has passed into the section ahead, albeit, being an IB section. The signalman will send the Is Line Clear, clear the IB sig and give TES, straight away.
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| Call attention and train entering section 26/05/2015 at 00:31 #72723 | |
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vontrapp
210 posts |
The Bury line SB's 'snatched' !
Last edited: 26/05/2015 at 00:31 by vontrapp Log in to reply |