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| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 05:37 #74758 | |
primedetective
33 posts |
As another American who has watched the series mentioned more than once, and having visited the UK for about 3 weeks this summer, I can say with a decent amount of confidence that the situations shown in the series are definitely atypical. The delays don't usually impact many services outside of the specific line impacted, which results in a very small ratio of trains being delayed or cancelled as there are a much larger amount of lines running normally. As for the pricing, I found that almost all of the prices quoted in the series were for tickets during a peak period, and usually a heavy peak period such as a Friday evening, or directly before a holiday. In addition, almost all of the tickets were for trains leaving within an hour or so of purchase. Tickets that I purchased were definitely reasonable for the distance traveled, such as London to York for about £45, or Moreton-in-Marsh to Paignton for about £40. I bought these tickets far in advance, but I got the impression that as long as the tickets were bought at least say, 5 days before the journey, that the price would be reasonably low. Why anyone wouldn't buy a ticket beforehand for the most expensive and congested periods of the year is beyond me, but that's an issue for people worldwide. Personally I think both the American system and the British system run well with respect to their funding. Obviously with more traffic and awareness in Britain, as well as a culture more centered around train services, the services run more frequently and along a wider variety of lines with faster times. Here in America we have to make do with the fact that most train services are underused due to a cultural fixation on cars, as well as the fact that many of our services are intercity and travel good distances between major population centers at speed that can be matched by car. In addition, with a larger freight rail presence here, passenger services are less prioritized which can incur large delays on older lines with fewer sidings. Finally, most of the locomotives and rolling stock are quite old, which can create major delays when wear and tear eventually take their toll. So overall I think Amtrak does quite well with what they are able to do. Sorry for the long post, just wanted to give my full opinion on everything I've seen so far. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, Muzer |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 08:52 #74761 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:I just finished watching that 2012 television series on the British rail system and I had a question about schedule padding and trainset utilization. One major theme of the series was that small delays quickly snowballed into large delays. In face it felt that the system had almost no margin for error built into it, especially in terms of transet availability so as soon as a train got too late some following train had to be canceled outright. This then resulted in overcrowding and all sorts of ad hoc methods to manage train reservations and accomidate stranded passengers.Here we go again... :angry: :doh: We don't have the luxury, Mike, of (functionally) unlimited space to cover with railway track, nor of so-called services that offer less trains in a day than our commuter areas offer each hour. We are therefore stuffing trains up and down a double-track pipe (in other words no opportunity to use bi-directional signalling for tidal flow) in and out of heavily constrained termini (I can assure you land around Fenchurch Street is not cheap, so expansion is not considered likely in the near future) at headways of somewhere between 150 and 240 seconds, relentlessly for two hours at a time twice each weekday. I believe the peak service out of Fenchurch St is less than it used to be. Have a look at page 27 of this document http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/media/905108/c2c_tt_booklet.pdf showing 20 trains leaving Fenchurch in the hour starting at 17:00. When I was supervisor at Barking there were 24 in the same hour. (Remember all the down Tilburys make a conflicting move with the up main at Barking West Junction, just to keep things interesting.) I once watched the peak at Fenchurch from a long-gone vantage point high above the buffer stops; it gave a view down the length of the platform to the left-hand curve the tracks make in the station throat. Trains were leaving at 2.5 minute intervals; in other words, from the time a train was given 'right away' there were 10 minutes to get it clear of the platform, get the next train in to that platform, unload if it was a passenger, load the outgoing passengers, change crews (there wasn't time enough for the incoming crew to walk the length of the train) and be ready for 'right away' again. Believe me, if you couldn't see the next train in approaching as the outgoing train was leaving the platform you could safely predict a late departure in 10 minutes' time. Yet we consistently managed right-time figures in excess of 90%. (That's real right-time by the way, for internal consumption, not the up to 5 minutes late of the public performance measure.) Indeed there was one occasion when we managed 100%! I don't think that's fragile. In fact, when you consider how much kit there has to be to enable such an intense service (with all the potential for things to go wrong), I think that's amazingly robust. As for dealing with 'one unders', how would you like us to handle it Mike? Perhaps you'd prefer that a dismembered (possibly thoroughly scattered) human body was just left lying around for all to see until close of service? What about the unfortunate driver who hit the victim? Are they expected to carry on until end of shift as if nothing has happened? (Some would be able to, but some are deeply affected and there are a few who never drive a train again, by the way.) That, of course, ignores the legal framework. You may be used to a high body count where you come from. (Certainly your murder rate seems a tad higher than ours and the lamentable regularity of gun massacres seems to be regarded as perfectly acceptable for some reason.) We regard it as a matter of some significance. So there's police involvement. (And curse the day that the civil police attend, either because there aren't sufficient British Transport Police or for some other reason. I recall an occasion in about 1986 when Liverpool St Control declined to call the BTP out to one under on the Lea Valley north of Tottenham Hale, so the Met attended - and required that the job be stopped; their assumption was that any body was a crime scene and they treated it accordingly, whereas the BTP knew the score a lot better. The line was shut for over 2hr in the middle of the peak. Luckily we were able to divert trains via Seven Sisters, but that still left over a dozen trains trapped by the closure. As the Seven Sisters route was timetabled up to the max in the peak hour, there were significant delays to the trains that did run.) Then there's the fundamental incoherence in asking your final question having suggested more padding of rolling stock fleets. Trains are expensive and have to be paid for somehow. In this country, a large part of that payment comes from the passengers in the form of fares. The more you pad the fleets, the more you have to pay and the more fares would have to rise just to keep extra rolling stock standing around 'just in case'. I don't know how you get away with it on your side of the Pond. But over here we organise it to use trains up to the limit of their likely availability (every fleet has a carefully assessed number of 'maintenance spares' to allow for work that can't be carried out overnight or between the peaks, and perhaps a few more besides to cope with contingencies). And as more availability gets wrung out of existing stock and passenger numbers continue to climb, extra diagrams start to be timetabled to accommodate some of the extra traffic within existing fleets. (By the time you factor in lead times for new trains, compatibility issues between different fleets and the like, additional rolling stock is rarely an easy answer to passenger numbers, though it's often the only long-term one.) Again, given the mileages run, the conditions under which they're used and the tiny maintenance windows that exist in a typical UK day, I think we can safely say our rolling stock is robust not fragile - as is the maintenance and timetabling regime. In short, Europe is not the US Mike, so kindly stop trying to tell us we should run our trains in the same deeply inefficient way that you do! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, Muzer, Dick, NCC1701, DriverCurran, GoochyB |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 12:15 #74763 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
I had another question regarding service disruptions. If some part of a major line is blocked, how easy is it for the average passenger to use alternative services to route around the problem, perhaps using local services with multiple connections. The series showed a lot of customer service interactions and at one point the ECML was blocked for a number of days and passengers were getting irate, but the WCML never seemed to be offered as an alternative routing. " said: Here is the link to the first episode. It seemed above board when I was watching it and it was linked to/recommended on the signaling Facebook group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJtnfv1N80I There was another more recent (2015) show with the basic premise of "our railways are the worst in Europe, let's explore why", but I can't find the link right now. " said: I usually give British television the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like it may have been edited to exaggerate the problems because I don't remember a single situation where the service was shown to be running smoothly. The workers were literally lurching from one crisis to the next, the trains were packed and the passengers on the verge of going ballistic. The other takeaway from the show is that half the passengers are drunk, especially after hours or on the way to a football match. :S What's more surprising is that more people here haven't watched the series. I figured something with that level of production value and behind the scenes access would have been more popular with fans. :lol: " said: Don't blame the messenger, I'm only asking about what I saw. The 2015 investigative report (that I'll find the link for) was claiming a nationwide OTP of 76% and featured a train from Brighton that was on schedule 0% of the time. The 2012 series would show a train unable to depart due to the lack of a driver and then cut to some employee explaining how if such and such train was late then some other train couldn't leave. It was honestly presented as a daily occurrence. " said: Before you yell at me you have to watch the series. Not only were about half the service disruptions being someone hit by a train (I sensed a definite "message" in that regard, probably the price for getting the access they did), but at several points they showed Network Rail controllers explaining how a fatality at some point far from London would be impacting the peak period 4 hours later. The series had employees stating how they could recover from one disruption, but if there were two the whole night was shot. The camera kept cutting to status screens showing how every train was delayed or canceled. Like I said I give British television a presumption of accuracy because you have standards. " said: If there isn't a chronic cancellation/delay problem then I guess you don't need spares, but extremely high utilization by definition makes your services very fragile. This is why flying is so unpleasant because if your plane craps out you are SOL since airlines don't keep extra aircraft laying about and there is no excess capacity for the spillover. Resiliency is a feature, not a bug. Who pays for it? I don't know, try your famous fuel taxes, but delay compensation is non-trivial not to mention gaining the good will of the customers. " said: Well the UK is not Europe either. The figure given was that the British rail network was 40% less efficient than those on the continent. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 12:28 by Jersey_Mike Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 12:30 #74764 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
I've seen Keeping Britain on Track and I think it was a superb documentary (although I have come to not care much for the constant hopping back and forth between stories that modern documentaries do - compare, for example, to the amazing The Train Now Departing of 1988 which is on iPlayer). Thinking back to the series, one of my abiding memories is a bloke going absolutely spare about engineering works resulting in him having to get a bus and "the lazy f**ks should work overnight instead" - documentary then cuts to a team relaying track overnight. It was quite clever at those little amusements. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, Mike, but you're definitely approaching the documentary in the wrong way if your takeaways are "everything is constantly fugged" and "everyone that uses trains in Britain are drunkards". Clearly that's not the point (and isn't true) - but a programme about British railways IN Britain is hardly going to be "British Railways 101 - this is how it looks when everything's going great". It wouldn't get on telly, would it? People want to see meltdowns and conflict and a chance to see how bad it all is sometimes. As someone mentioned above, they don't mention the days when the network is running fine, because no one here cares. Someone from another country might, but not here. EDIT: And, of course, 6 hours of television is generally just a very poor sample to base an opinion on, especially when that opinion is voiced with the confidence and certainty of yourself. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 12:34 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 13:09 #74765 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Jersey_Mike: Was the 2015 one you watched called Nick and Margaret: The Trouble with our Trains? I thought that was actually a very good overview of the whole structure of the industry for the layman, which did indeed show why we have some of the problems we do. Perhaps it exaggerated a little, and there were also a few relatively minor errors, but I generally thought it did a good job at what it appeared to set out to achieve - trying to make the industry less mystifying to the layman, while letting them see exactly what the problems are and why. If you're going to moan about the state of our industry, THAT would (IMHO) provide much more legitimate material to complain about, since our actual industry structure is, er, far from optimal in a few cases! Re diversions: You have to remember that the ECML and the WCML go up opposite sides of the country, and the connections between the two sides aren't always great. If you're going to Scotland you're probably fine getting the opposite one (Glasgow to Edinburgh is not really a problem and there are even some trains extended from the ECML to Glasgow and the WCML to Edinburgh, if you're lucky with your timing), and perhaps to a lesser extent if you're going to somewhere well-served by First TransPennine Express or CrossCountry services from the opposite line (though that would still incur a hefty time penalty), but for everywhere else it's possibly going to be faster to wait for the disruption to go away. I will admit that one weakness in our system is the whole situation of ticket acceptance. Usually these agreements are worked out on-the-fly between operators (though maybe there are long-standing reciprocal agreements that get put in place quickly during times of big disruption), but if you have an inflexible ticket like a cheap advance you're basically relying on the good faith of the other TOC to allow you to travel. If you have a fully flexible ticket, on the other hand, you're likely to be fine just going on a completely different route (depending on exactly where you're going of course), but as you've pointed out yourself, in the peak times these aren't exactly cheap. If, of course, the diversionary route is served by the same TOC (or one on which your ticket would have been valid anyway), you're probably more likely to be recommended it. As an enthusiast, I'm not sure exactly how well this sort of thing is generally communicated to passengers who might not otherwise know of alternative routes, but given the complexities in ticketing and whether or not it'll actually be faster in the end, you can possibly understand if staff don't mention the possibility. But as anecdotal evidence, I've seen a few occasions where there has disruption around London, either on a TOC boundary or where London Underground parallel part of the route. Usually the TOCs manage to sort out some kind of arrangement at short notice, but not always. I had one where I was on a Travelcard with a friend at Ewell East trying to get to London, and there had been an accident involving the driver of a Southern ECS at Epsom. We were advised to go via Epsom (outside the Travelcard zones) and double back onto a South West Trains service. Now, admittedly, this isn't so much a TOC thing as a going outside your ticket's validity thing. But I've also heard of disruption where passengers have been advised that they are allowed to use London Underground services to transfer between suburban stations an the wanted London Terminal without penalty. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 13:13 by Muzer Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 13:13 #74766 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:When these pieces air on American television they are positive to the point of being saccharine because the producers clearly have an arrangement with the rail company not to portray anything in a bad light. You'll see engineering works finishing on time, busy rush hours going off without a hitch, the lost and found person reuniting a passenger with their iPad, etc. Maybe I am not familiar with all the conventions of British television (although I watch enough of it), but the theme of the 2012 series came across as "the railways are falling apart, but the employees are doing their best under challenging circumstances." In fact I believe challenging was probably the most frequently used word in the series  The 2015 investigation was basically titled "Why do our railways suck?" so putting the two shows together gives a third party the impression that the British railway system is about to collapse.If the 2012 series was as exaggerated as people say it is, then I would really fault the producers for not making the exceptional nature of some of the delays more apparent. Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 13:20 #74767 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Yeah, we're very self-deprecating in general in Britain; we're much more likely to moan about how bad things are when actually they're OK, than pretend things are OK when actually they're bad. It was also a BBC documentary which also reduces the possibility of "arrangements" of that sort, since the BBC wouldn't be allowed to show anything overtly promotional and are more likely to strive more to keep their documentaries more balanced. But many, many people in the UK travel on trains, and so unlike in America where it's certainly rarer (except on commuter networks), people likely already have a feel (albeit perhaps an inaccurate one if they don't travel much) of how likely and how serious delays actually are. So again, you don't NEED to say "oh, by the way, this stuff rarely happens" since it's something people already have a feel for; it sort of goes without saying that a documentary would show only the interesting parts (ie when things go wrong) and skip the boring parts. Offtopic somewhat, but there was another rather good railway documentary on Channel 5 of all places, called The Railway: First Great Western (in fact, there were two series of it!). If you can get hold of it, I'd advise watching that if you enjoyed this, it's of a similar style. There was also another BBC one a couple of years earlier just focusing on the London Underground, it might have just been called The Tube but I don't quite recall. I'd avoid All Aboard: East Coast Trains, though, as that was rather dull and a little promotional. But it's like those airport documentaries - you must have seen some of them, I suspect - that show everything at an airport always going wrong. In reality, again, planes usually run well, but just showing everyone getting onto a plane on time, everything going smoothly in security and immigration, and the plane taking off perfectly on time would not make for a particularly engaging programme. I wouldn't say it's misleading, at least not deliberately, since many people watching should be aware that they're only focusing on the interesting parts. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 13:22 by Muzer Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:09 #74768 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
Mike, I think you need to remember the size of our little isle and how densely populated it is. There is not the space to build endless railways (or roads) and most are from a Victorian era. Certainly around London the number of tracks that was then is what we have now because they are surrounded by housing with little or no more for expansion. Because the level of service is far more intense than levels in the USA, any form of disruption will have the possibility of becoming a network wide problem. This is due to the stock utilisation where it is possible that a train doing suburban work into London could form a service further afield on a different area of the network next. Closure of the track on its inward working will then delay the outward and it snowballs from there. Also bear in mind that the distances are a lot less in the UK, so it is easier for knock on effects. Take last night all for lines from the sussex coast to London Bridge were shut for 2-3 hours in the peak for a fatality. It is only 50ish miles to the coast so you can see it's not long before the disruption is felt towards the coast, especially in the peak where other terminal stations are also full to capacity. I wouldn't say the network is falling apart, but in some ways is a victim of its own success. The reliability increases, more people travel which leads to overcrowding and more pressure on stock and services. You also have to remember that projects take a while to get through Parliament and into reality. Take Thameslink 2000 to link up areas North of London with the South, Well its 2015 it's now the Thameslink Programme and still not finished. In years gone by there would have been more flexibility but then came the Beeching cuts - branches that were axed are now generally either preserved railways which cover only part of the former branch or been built over for housing etc. The preserved railways in cases do have some form of connection to the main network but are still not always a viable option for commuting compared with if the whole branch had been still available in times of disruption. How we would love to have some of those connections again, that would help ease some of the congestion into London and other areas. Other changes have been replacing underused lines with other forms eg the trams in Croydon, where branches that saw little use outside of the peaks have been transformed to light rail with extensions and lengthening now being needed to keep up with demand. Space is what makes things difficult - have a look on google earth around the lines in London where capacity is full and you'll see that there's little or no room for new lines to be built. We actually do great with what we have available to us on this side of the pond but probably the programmes you watched may not have been made initially with the intention of being sold for broadcast in other countries which is why you may have the feeling you do after watching them. I'd also agree with Muzer, the First Great Western one that was on Channel 5 in the UK was highly informative and I thought well made. Especially as at the time of filming was when the Dawlish Sea Wall was being repaired, so well worth a watch if you can get it. Gareth Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 14:41 by TimTamToe Reason: Lack of thought originally lol Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:14 #74769 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:In years gone by there would have been more flexibility but then came the Beeching cuts - railways that were axed that are now generally either preserved railways with no national network connections (except Bluebell kind of) or been built over for housing etc. How we would love to have some of those connections again, that would help ease some of the congestion into London and other areas.Off on a tangent a bit, but I'm a bit confused about your point here - are you saying that the Bluebell Railway is the only one to be connected to the mainline? Because that's not true at all; there are plenty of heritage railways with a mainline connection (many of which have trains that run onto the mainline - Dartmoor, North Yorkshire Moors and (in the future) Swanage come to mind here, as well as the Spa Valley (sort of)). Or are you saying that the Bluebell is the only one that connects from one point on the mainline to another point on the mainline? Because that's not true either, at least as far as I know - the Bluebell has only the connection at East Grinstead. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 14:15 by Muzer Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:20 #74770 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:" said:Yes, and quite a few others are nearby to rail stations - the Severn Valley might not connect to Kidderminster station itself, but stations that close would certainly qualify for "out of station interchange" in TfL Land. Might need a new ticket though, not sure the old school card stub would get past a London Midland guard!In years gone by there would have been more flexibility but then came the Beeching cuts - railways that were axed that are now generally either preserved railways with no national network connections (except Bluebell kind of) or been built over for housing etc. How we would love to have some of those connections again, that would help ease some of the congestion into London and other areas.Off on a tangent a bit, but I'm a bit confused about your point here - are you saying that the Bluebell Railway is the only one to be connected to the mainline? Because that's not true at all; there are plenty of heritage railways with a mainline connection (many of which have trains that run onto the mainline - Dartmoor, North Yorkshire Moors and (in the future) Swanage come to mind here, as well as the Spa Valley (sort of)). Or are you saying that the Bluebell is the only one that connects from one point on the mainline to another point on the mainline? Because that's not true either, at least as far as I know - the Bluebell has only the connection at East Grinstead. Quote: But many, many people in the UK travel on trains, and so unlike in America where it's certainly rarer (except on commuter networks), people likely already have a feel (albeit perhaps an inaccurate one if they don't travel much) of how likely and how serious delays actually are. So again, you don't NEED to say "oh, by the way, this stuff rarely happens" since it's something people already have a feel for; it sort of goes without saying that a documentary would show only the interesting parts (ie when things go wrong) and skip the boring parts.Yes I was going to say something along the same lines, but wasn't sure how to word it - even if people have a skewed view of railways here, they at least understand the basics, and most even have a decent grasp of why things happen and how they happen. There'll always be a few that go berserk about delays, of course, and that programme had its fair share. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 14:22 by RainbowNines Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TimTamToe |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:25 #74771 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:The Ffestiniog immediately springs to mind as a preserved line that has good links with the mainline. Over the bridge or barrow crossing at Blaenau Ffestiniog and you're on the platform for the other service.In years gone by there would have been more flexibility but then came the Beeching cuts - railways that were axed that are now generally either preserved railways with no national network connections (except Bluebell kind of) or been built over for housing etc. How we would love to have some of those connections again, that would help ease some of the congestion into London and other areas.Off on a tangent a bit, but I'm a bit confused about your point here - are you saying that the Bluebell Railway is the only one to be connected to the mainline? Because that's not true at all; there are plenty of heritage railways with a mainline connection (many of which have trains that run onto the mainline - Dartmoor, North Yorkshire Moors and (in the future) Swanage come to mind here, as well as the Spa Valley (sort of)). Or are you saying that the Bluebell is the only one that connects from one point on the mainline to another point on the mainline? Because that's not true either, at least as far as I know - the Bluebell has only the connection at East Grinstead. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TimTamToe |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:33 #74772 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:" said:Wasn't worded well was it :doh lolIn years gone by there would have been more flexibility but then came the Beeching cuts - railways that were axed that are now generally either preserved railways with no national network connections (except Bluebell kind of) or been built over for housing etc. How we would love to have some of those connections again, that would help ease some of the congestion into London and other areas.Off on a tangent a bit, but I'm a bit confused about your point here - are you saying that the Bluebell Railway is the only one to be connected to the mainline? Because that's not true at all; there are plenty of heritage railways with a mainline connection (many of which have trains that run onto the mainline - Dartmoor, North Yorkshire Moors and (in the future) Swanage come to mind here, as well as the Spa Valley (sort of)). Or are you saying that the Bluebell is the only one that connects from one point on the mainline to another point on the mainline? Because that's not true either, at least as far as I know - the Bluebell has only the connection at East Grinstead. No wasn't implying that the Bluebell was the only one to meet with national rail across the country, just that around London lines that were axed aren't now able to be used in their entirety (although had forgotten about the Spa now linking up to mainline at Eridge) because only sections have been saved / preserved and certain areas have no hope in the future to be re railed because of buildings etc. which would otherwise have helped ease pressures on the mainline. eg there is always talk every now and then trying to connect Uckfield back up to Lewes, but it gets sticky towards the London end of where to feed it back in etc. Hope that makes more sense Gareth Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:35 #74773 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
Ah, I see what you mean. In that case, allow me to present the Epping Ongar Railway as another future exception, with the caveat that it's on the London Underground ;) Mid-Hants also connects well at the Alton end (though doesn't make it to Winchester and probably never will so is, to put it mildly, of limited strategic use), but might be outside the area you are looking at. I'd say as far as heritage railways that are able to provide a useful *network* (as opposed to local/branch line) connection go, the Ffestiniog is certainly up there, though I suspect it might still be faster to go via Chester! I'm struggling to think of any more current examples of railways that connect in two places to the mainline (that aren't also served by another direct line). I'm thinking the Great Central could prove useful for exceptional circumstances when the bridge is finished. Could we even see it being used for diversions during major engineering works in the East Midlands? Probably not, but one can dream 
Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 14:39 by Muzer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TimTamToe |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 14:51 #74774 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
Cheers Rainbow & Karl & Muzer edited the original as well to make it bit clearer (hopefully). Originally hadn't been thinking further afield and was more in the way of them being alternatives when there was disruption on the mainlines. But then really hadn't really been thinking full stop on that part of the post lol I blame my lack of proper thinking on it approaching caffeine enhancement time. Gareth Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 15:44 #74775 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Certainly when the Tanygrisiau-Blaenau stretch was reopened, Porthmadog-Blaenau-LLandudno-Chester gave the shortest journey time from Porthmadog to London. I haven't checked but I suspect that's still true. Edit: looking it up, it appears that at present the shortest time from Porthmadog to Euston by both routes is exactly the same, 5hrs 55mins! There have occasionally been suggestions that London Midland or their predecessors should run through commuter services from Snow Hill to Bewdley - since WMSC took over the main line through Kidderminster, Kidderminster Station box is a fully-signalled fringe to WMSC. I don't think these suggestions have ever got very far though. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 15:50 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 16:04 #74776 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
It's a good idea isn't it? You'd think that maybe running the train down to Bewdley would be a good way of filling the downtime of trains turning at Kidderminster. Cost effectiveness is the key I guess - maybe it'd work for one or two services in the morning peak, but is there demand for more? Most LM trains across the Stourbridge section of the Snow Hill Lines run fairly empty in the off peak. Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 16:35 #74779 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Chiltern have occasionally run "excursion" services (e.g. a Bridgnorth-Marylebone day trip for Christmas shopping and the like) and there's continued mumblings about its plausibility. The main problem is likely whether or not the SVR want to commit to guaranteeing that the service will run to time (although that's not too difficult on the Kidder-Bewdley section). However, I would be somewhat doubtful about London Midland being "progressive" enough to do it. Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 16:37 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 16:40 #74780 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
The SVR doesn't always have that many paths free - the morning peak would be fine - later might get trickier - and a scheduled regular commuter service would have to become the focus of the timetable every day.
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| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 17:03 #74781 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Regarding the idea of running trains on a different route if there is disruption: 1. Drivers need to have route knowledge to take the route 2. Rolling stock needs to be cleared to use that route (not often a problem but can exist) 3. There needs to be capacity on the diversionary route to cope with the additional traffic. Shorter diversions within the TOC's area may well be possible at a moment's notice, for example Kings Cross to Hitchin via Hertford instead of Welwyn - though this route is limited in capacity, both signal sections and power capabilities. Going east coast instead of west coast or vice versa isn't going to happen for all three reasons except for sleepers booked in advance. Regarding high use being fragile, well what exactly do you want? Fewer trains, more crowding, less flexibility for passengers - or something that works well 99% of the time? Of course that TV programme showed problem after problem: it wouldn't be TV if everything was working smoothly. Something like 6 months' worth of filming from each of multiple film crews went into that few hours of TV actually broadcast. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 17:59 #74782 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:The SVR doesn't always have that many paths free - the morning peak would be fine - later might get trickier - and a scheduled regular commuter service would have to become the focus of the timetable every day.Even on Table C (departure from either end every 40 minutes), it's still something like 3 free paths an hour between Kidder and Bewdley! The rest of the line is another matter entirely, of course... Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 17:59 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 18:31 #74785 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:There was an Airport documentary I remember from the United States that featured Southwest Airlines and while there was plenty of conflict, the narrative was still pretty positive and disruptions were always portrayed as being abnormal. I do remember getting angry when someone needed to go from BWI to Providence ASAP for a Wedding and the Southwest agent was trying to book them on other airlines without success. However both destinations are served by Amtrak's high speed rail line. BWI even has its own station! :doh Talk about failure to think outside the Aluminum tube. " said: I'm talking about the customer service personnel helping passengers get booked on an alternative service, not physically running the train via a different route. It is practical to use local trains on secondary lines to bypass blocked main lines or make up for a cancellation? I know the UK has a much richer rail network which should make alternate routing possible and a good customer service system would be able to pull up alternative services sort of like how Google Maps can reroute around traffic delays. Of course if the services aren't well coordinated such a plan might take longer than just waiting for the line to re-open or whatever. " said: Like I said, I expected British television, especially the BBC, to accurately portray events. Also the show made no effort to indicate the events shown were rare or unusual. If service was bad as it was portrayed, I would advocate that service be cut back until the schedule could be reliably maintained. It's better to advertise the service one can maintain instead of the service one wishes they could maintain. Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 18:37 #74786 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:I'm talking about the customer service personnel helping passengers get booked on an alternative service, not physically running the train via a different route. It is practical to use local trains on secondary lines to bypass blocked main lines or make up for a cancellation? I know the UK has a much richer rail network which should make alternate routing possible and a good customer service system would be able to pull up alternative services sort of like how Google Maps can reroute around traffic delays. Of course if the services aren't well coordinated such a plan might take longer than just waiting for the line to re-open or whatever.Fair enough, but they do that already on a regular basis. As it happens, as I write this there is the following posted on an internal railway comms board: Quote: Ticket AcceptanceEdit: It's also posted on the South West Trains website " said: If service was bad as it was portrayed, I would advocate that service be cut back until the schedule could be reliably maintained. It's better to advertise the service one can maintain instead of the service one wishes they could maintain.Great way to really make the passengers angry. SimSig Boss Last edited: 05/08/2015 at 18:39 by GeoffM Reason: SWT Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 18:38 #74787 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts 
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" said::doh That's your first mistake. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 18:59 #74789 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
Last winter (2014/15) because of exceptional snowfall I ended up helping to clear snow from points in the Scottish Highlands. I'm an office based Signalling Engineer so it isn't part of my core job description but every spare body was needed to keep the line open and my colleagues and I worked many gruelling nightshifts in gale force winds and blizzards at Slochd Summit etc.. Now, on four of those nights we were joined by a TV crew who were filming a documentary about how the railway copes with winter weather. They filmed us digging out points by hand in horizontal driving snow and zero visibility. They filmed from the cab of the snowplough engine as it patrolled the line in the pitch black night to prevent drifts. Then they went away to film the guys in Operations Control making decisions about where best to deploy resources and what sort of service to run in the morning. To date this documentry has not been shown on TV. I suspect that's because they're simply not interested in portraying an efficient rail industry with competent, hard working employees. Log in to reply |
| Schedule Padding and Trainset Utilization 05/08/2015 at 19:47 #74791 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:I was going to say - assuming that any TV show isn't going to have inaccuracies (intentional or not) seems an incredibly naive thing to do!:doh That's your first mistake. Log in to reply |