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| Signalling Grades 17/09/2015 at 11:31 #75975 | |
bri2808
162 posts |
Ok; So I am taking the plunge and looking to apply for a role with Network Rail as a full time signaller. I feel its time to have a change in my career and I have looked at the Network Rail website for sometime but never applied. I have a question for people with knowledge around signalling in the 'real world' and wondered if someone could explain what the different grades mean and what grade I should look to apply for as a starting position. I dont want to apply for a grade that I am unlikely to be even considered for. Any help and tips would be grand please Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 17/09/2015 at 12:01 #75976 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
In short the lowest grade is 1, and the highest is 10 (or is it 9). Applying off the street I know people who've started pretty much everywhere on the spectrum of grades so don't let put you off applying. To help you compare in Simsig to a real life grade. North Wales Coast - Llanfairpwll Crossing Keeper - Grade 1 North Wales Coast - Prestatyn - Grade 2 North East Wales - Gobowen North - Grade 3 North East Wales - Croes Newydd North Fork - Grade 4 North Wales Coast - Llandudno Junction - Grade 5 "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bri2808 |
| Signalling Grades 17/09/2015 at 13:56 #75980 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
" said:In short the lowest grade is 1, and the highest is 10 (or is it 9).9 is the highest signalling grade, some SSM jobs are "grade 10" Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 17/09/2015 at 17:01 #75986 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
Grading of boxes is subject to historic quirks as the grading system has changed through the years. Some boxes have managed to maintain a significantly higher grade than they really should be entitled to due to historic traffic patterns, while the grades of many boxes don't reflect increased signaller workload since the last regrading was done. It is notoriously difficult to get a grade increased and the Hay system which NR currently use to assess grades is skewed in favour of keeping the grade as low as possible, unsurprisingly. There are also many signallers who retain a "personal grade" where they have either been made redundant from a higher graded post or their box has been regraded to a lower grade. There are examples of signallers who are paid the grade 8 or 9 rate who are working grade 1 and 2 boxes. In theory they are supposed to apply for the first substantive post at the higher grade which becomes vacant or accept the lower rate of pay but the company has been very reluctant to enforce this rule over the last few years. The frustrating thing about the grading system is the gap between the lower and higher grades which manifests itself around the 3/4/5 mark and which means that percentage pay rises strongly favour the higher graded roles. Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 13:16 #76027 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
Numbered grades make the position of Signaler sound like some drab government job. North American signal related workers have retained their traditional labels through a combination of regulatory language and collective bargaining agreements. The rough approximate order is... Clerk Telegrapher Leverman Operator Agent/Operator (obsolete) Assistant to the Train Director (aka "the goat") Train Director Assistant Dispatcher Dispatcher Assistant Chief Dispatcher Chief Dispatcher Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 15:11 #76030 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
As we seem to be talking history as well as the present, I might add that there have been two previous grading systems under British Rail, before the present one came in. Until about 1995 or '96, signalmen (NOT signaller, please note!!!) were graded A to F, with A being the lowest. But level crossing operators who didn't have actual signalling responsibility were not within the signalmens' grades, being (most often) Leading Railmen (I think) or sometimes even resident crossing keepers (a total anomaly with lots of potential pitfalls). Shunt frame operators were also outside the signalling grades, being graded (in my experience) Senior Railman and regarded as being in the shunters' line of promotion. Relief signalmen were graded 1 to 3; class 1s relieved in class A boxes, 2s in B boxes and 3s in the rest, with class 3 reliefs whose rosters had them covering class D and higher boxes entitled to the rate of pay for the boxes they covered. If a reliefman covered a box at a higher grade, he would be entitled to the higher rate of pay for that turn; if he covered at a higher grade for at least 25% of his shifts in the course of a year, he would be entitled to the higher grade on a personal basis (but in fact the number of shifts that could be excluded when making that calculation made it extremely difficult to get the higher grade). Those grades came out of the 'Pay & Efficiency' restructuring of the 1960s or '70s. Previously, I think there were grades 3 to 1 (with 3 the lowest), but with a distinction between 'goods' and 'passenger' boxes. I'm not sure quite how reliefs were graded for those boxes (it was before my time). But they did find that they needed some higher grades at the top end so 'Special' class signalmen were created, initially mainly reliefmen. Eventually there were two grades: 'Special A' and 'Special B' (but I don't know which was the higher grade, although I know my father was a 'Special' before P&E). Which is why you'll occasionally, even today, hear an old hand refer to the days when the Specials really were special. The old gradings were based pretty rigidly on a system that reflected the business and difficulty of the box. I suspect the original system was simply 'marks' based - a given number of marks for each lever moved, each bell signal sent & received, each entry in the block book, phone call made and so on. That could lead to some of the new powerboxes being somewhat undergraded for the amount of work they covered. Under P&E there was a 2-part system. Each item of equipment in a box was given a value (different values for automatic and controlled signals, values for points, FPLs, ground frames, track circuits, block instruments, telephones, etc), then the marks were taken in the usual way and added to the equipment value. Dividing that by the number of shifts worked in a week (6 shifts each day for a double-manned box, or 5/3 shifts if there was only one night man or whatever) with an allowance if the box wasn't open at weekends gave a result that would fall into one or other of the grading bands. Taking the marks could be quite a vexed issue; an inspector would be stationed in the box for several days and mark every action the signalman took. (I've an idea there was an entitlement to have a union rep there too but I don't know if it was ever exercised.) It was widely believed to be too much of a coincidence that many freights that ran when required turned out not to be required when the marks were being taken. On the other hand, I heard a story of a signalman arranging with his mate (the local bakers' delivery man) to use the level crossing as many times as he could get away with - as it was a crossing where the gates were kept closed to road traffic unless required, that made for a few extra marks... It was widely considered that this system resulted in absolute block boxes becoming undergraded. But as their numbers were declining steadily (even though not as rapidly as initially assumed) and as some regions made a 'standstill agreement' (once a box had its grade, it would keep it even though traffic declined or the box was rationalised) there was never enough disquiet for it to be changed. I should add that management had discretion to give a higher grade if they felt an exceptional case deserved it. Of course it could only have been coincidence that, shortly after Kings Cross powerbox opened at Class F the Divisional Management at Liverpool Street decided Liverpool St was an exceptional case and upgraded it from an E. (Some unworthy souls suggested it was because DM LV, with a much busier station, didn't want to be upstaged...) But LV wasn't really such hard work; Bethnal Green was much harder for the single signalman who worked there and the result was the infamous 'tea break' strike until BG also got its class F... Happy days! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, guyh, postal, Steamer, AndyG, RainbowNines, headshot119, flabberdacks, meeko |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 16:33 #76032 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
I must say one of the best parts of this forum are the long passages about years gone by. Really fascinating to hear anecdotes and stories!
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| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 19:52 #76035 | |
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MrBitsy
121 posts |
I attended a selection day in Birmingham. About 22 people started the day with 5 being selected. After each test, the group got smaller as people didn't reach the required standard. At the end of the day I was told I had passed to grade 8 and was offered Kings Cross or West Hampstead. Grade 1 is he lowest with 9 being highest. TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 20:11 #76037 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:'tea break' strike? Do tell! Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 20:12 #76038 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:Numbered grades make the position of Signaler sound like some drab government job. North American signal related workers have retained their traditional labels through a combination of regulatory language and collective bargaining agreements. The rough approximate order is...Different situation. We're talking about people who would (probably) all be "Leverman" or "Operator" in your system, but in a range of different difficulties. Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 20:18 #76040 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:I attended a selection day in Birmingham. About 22 people started the day with 5 being selected. After each test, the group got smaller as people didn't reach the required standard. At the end of the day I was told I had passed to grade 8 and was offered Kings Cross or West Hampstead.Out of interest, what did the tests consist of? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bri2808 |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 20:47 #76042 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:I must say one of the best parts of this forum are the long passages about years gone by. Really fascinating to hear anecdotes and stories!I have tried to convince Keith to write a book on his experiences but as far as I know without success! His prose certainly gives a certain other signalbox author a run for his money. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: mfcooper, postal |
| Signalling Grades 18/09/2015 at 23:41 #76051 | |
flabberdacks
636 posts |
" said:I attended a selection day in Birmingham. About 22 people started the day with 5 being selected. After each test, the group got smaller as people didn't reach the required standard.How do the selection days work? Are these days for existing signallers looking to advance? Our process here in Sydney, Australia at the moment is that every so often, vacancies will be advertised internally for anyone in the railway to apply in writing, successful applicants sit a simulator test of varying difficulty depending on the grade they have applied for. It's a little more involved than that, but basically the two-step process for signallers to advance. We have 7 grades in Sydney Grade 1 (lowest) - don't (officially) operate a panel, train recording/telephone duties, all newbies start here Grade 2 Grade 3 Grade 4 Area Controller 1 Area Controller 2 Area Controller 3 (highest) From what I'm told (I'm only a young pup), we too used to have a 'Special' class which worked the busiest boxes back in the day, and the Area Controller grades developed from the Special class when started to build power boxes in the late 70s and 80s. " said: At the end of the day I was told I had passed to grade 8 and was offered Kings Cross or West Hampstead.I've seen the short BBC video inside Kings Cross box, in addition to the sim, it looks like an incredible place to work. Have also seen some photos of West Hampstead box too. What drove your decision to pick West Hampstead (if the reasons aren't too personal)? Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 07:48 #76054 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:" said:Not a huge amount to tell, quite honestly. The BG signalmen were a bit brassed off that Liverpool Street had the grade but they didn't, although they were handling the same traffic and working their fingers to the bone. So their form of industrial action was to take a PNB (Physical Needs break - only existed for drivers - a 40 minute break to be taken between the 3rd and 5th hours of the shift. With a 14:00 changeover for late turn, you can see where that one's going!) So far as I remember (this was about 1976 I think) the F was conceded within a week.'tea break' strike? Do tell! Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 07:54 #76055 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:" said:I must say one of the best parts of this forum are the long passages about years gone by. Really fascinating to hear anecdotes and stories!I have tried to convince Keith to write a book on his experiences but as far as I know without success! His prose certainly gives a certain other signalbox author a run for his money. Thank you Geoff... I feel quite embarrassed. But - apart from finding time to sit down to the task amid work and training courses - I have a rather 'associative' memory, so unless something is triggered I have very little to write. Then there's the question of printability. For instance there was one colleague, much loved by all who knew him (and protected by all including his managers - he was heavily alcoholic and I never knew him sober) of whom several stories might be told, but I'd have a lifetime ban from the forum if I so much as quoted one short phrase of his. (Perhaps I'll try and find a way of conveying the flavour one day... moderator tolerance may have to be begged.) Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 08:16 #76056 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:" said:Celebrities often get a bit of flak for ghostwritten memoirs they haven't actually done much work on - but a hypothetical Keith's Memoirs is the sort of thing a good ghostwriter would be perfect for! They can sit down with you, have a chat, and ask all the right questions to get your memory flowing." said:I must say one of the best parts of this forum are the long passages about years gone by. Really fascinating to hear anecdotes and stories!I have tried to convince Keith to write a book on his experiences but as far as I know without success! His prose certainly gives a certain other signalbox author a run for his money. Now, we just need to find a "will work for tea" ghostwriter! Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 09:00 #76057 | |
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bri2808
162 posts |
Well thanks all for the info (and the stories too) I agree with Steamer who asked what the day/tests consisted of? I am going to apply now based on the info given here as it is something I really fancy doing. I have worked in a high pressured environment making quick decisions for the last 15 years so hopefully that will help me in any applications. Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 18:47 #76065 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:" said:More difficult tower assignments would get draw Train Director jobs. Near me when FRAZER interlocking and associated SEPTA Yard operations were assigned to THORN tower the Union got the job upgraded to Train Director. More typically once a leverman was assigned the Operator would become a Train Director. The more difficult the operators the more levermen or Assistants to the Train Director would be assigned. Jobs are assigned through the union seniority system so one hold Train Director jobs on the Extra board, but later earn a regular job at the Operator rate.Numbered grades make the position of Signaler sound like some drab government job. North American signal related workers have retained their traditional labels through a combination of regulatory language and collective bargaining agreements. The rough approximate order is...Different situation. We're talking about people who would (probably) all be "Leverman" or "Operator" in your system, but in a range of different difficulties. Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 19/09/2015 at 19:47 #76066 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:Numbered grades make the position of Signaler sound like some drab government job. North American signal related workers have retained their traditional labels through a combination of regulatory language and collective bargaining agreements. The rough approximate order is...:huh: Could someone translate these positions to the English equivalent? Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 09:31 #76092 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:" said:I'm not sure there are English equivalents as such, particularly as (if I understand it correctly), there are four distinct kinds of job within this range of grades. But lets have a stab.Numbered grades make the position of Signaler sound like some drab government job. North American signal related workers have retained their traditional labels through a combination of regulatory language and collective bargaining agreements. The rough approximate order is...:huh: Could someone translate these positions to the English equivalent? Clerk and Telegrapher sound like subdivisions of what, in UK practice, used to be called a Train Recorder (or Telegraph Lad or Box Lad). Where telegraph instruments remained in use (mainly ex-Great Northern lines, in some cases into the late 1970s) a train recorder would be required to operate the telegraph as well as keep the book. Train recorders generally did all the telephone work except safety of line stuff (signal post telephones and block messages if block instruments had failed or a verbal message was required). But train recorders were only provided in the busier boxes. In times gone by they were usually new entrants, their grading wasn't in the signalmens' line of promotion (so they might well go on to be porters or shunters if they didn't get a signalling job) and they might well be 'juniors' (under 16) before the school leaving age was raised. I think I'm right in saying that in US practice, once you get beyond the quietest locations, the person who deals with boxes (towers) on each side is different from the one who works the levers. In UK practice, on the other hand, a signalman did everything - working the levers, keeping the trains apart (block working in old money) including the passing of trains from box to box (increasingly automated from the 1920s on) and regulating traffic (usually with the assistance of Control, which I'll come back to). So it looks to me as if there's four grades (Leverman, Operator, Assistant to the Train Director and Train Director) covering the work that, in my day, was done by the six grades of signalmen. Every signalman would cover the duties the US would expect of an Operator, but at increasing levels of workload (not necessarily area - Borough Market junction had 31 levers and two top-grade signalman but covered just the tiny bit of track between London Bridge and Cannon Street stations). We don't have any equivalent to Dispatcher in UK practice. As I understand it, the dispatcher is ultimately responsible for keeping trains apart, traditionally by use of train orders supplementing the timetable (but more recently by working CTC installations). In UK practice, of course, that task is distributed to signalmen who perform it co-operatively with the assistance of a range of devices ranging from very basic block instruments or a one-engine-in-steam staff to full track circuiting with varying levels of direct control over the trains themselves. But the dispatcher has an overview of a wide area that - until the advent of large powerboxes - a UK signalman lacked. So the nearest equivalents to the range of dispatchers' grades would be regulators and controllers. Regulators would be stationed in certain busy boxes at strategic locations and their job would be to receive telephone advice of train running and issue regulating instructions as necessary. So by the end of the 1970s, there were regulators at St Pancras and at Bedford North, co-ordinating signalmen over a distance of perhaps 20 miles or so and liaising with Control. As powerboxes grew in size regulators' jobs morphed into Box Supervisors and later Box Managers and they became responsible for authorising things like passenger trains using goods lines and such. They were required to be Rules & Regs trained and had operating authority as such. Control was where the high-level overview was held. Originally devised by the Midland Railway, Control covered four areas: traffic (wagons - loaded, empty, in transit, on hand), motive power, traincrews and trains (the bit we're concerned with). Initially they covered surprisingly small areas (although both traffic and facilities would have been hugely denser then - I hate to think how many collieries there were in the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire coalfields, for instance resulting in a need for separate Control Offices at Derby, Toton and Nottingham). By the time I was on the railway, Euston Control had four sets of desks - West Coast Main Line extending to Rugby or thereabouts, Midland covering to just south of Wellingborough, North London covering Dalston Western Junction and Upper Holloway to Latchmere Junction and Kew East (all inclusive) and Great Central covering to just south of Aynho Junction. WCML just liaised with box supervisors at Euston, Willesden, Watford, Bletchley and Rugby and with the corresponding desk at Birmingham Control; likewise the Midland Man, whose detailed controlling was only necessary in the gap from about Napsbury/St Albans to somewhere north of Luton. North London and Great Central tended to let the signalmen get on with it - there really wasn't much regulating they could do in any case. Controllers were not Rules & Regs qualified so didn't have formal operating authority. TOPS largely did away with traffic control, train control increasingly went to box supervisors, motive power is now basically maintenance control and traincrews are controlled by their TOCs, so the old-style controls have tended to be merged to cover huge areas; what their staffing is nowadays I really don't know but I'm sure someone here can help. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: flabberdacks, JamesN, BarryM |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 11:39 #76097 | |
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jeffh16
40 posts |
The testing consists of firstly of a six part psychometric type test, then 4 separate tests to test "suitability for training". It takes 3-4 hours overall, depending on no. of candidates etc. Once completed your results then stand for 3 years, and if you fail you are allowed to retake after 6 months. Initially after application there is also a situational and judgemental assessment that you are emailed a link to complete online, shortly after submitting your application and CV. The application process goes as follows. submit CV complete situation and judgement test invite to assessment (with more details of assessments include) assessment local line manager interview for top candidates from assessments. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bri2808 |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 13:32 #76100 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:I put the clerk position in there because signalmen are typically drawn from the same pool as clerks. As the number of active towers dwindle it becomes inefficient to have an extra man on call for potentially just one tower job. Back in 2007 when I asked a young tower operator what he would do when his tower closed he said he'd probably go back to a clerk job at a yard. Also a friend of mine got started compiling delay reports and other things for Amtrak before he upgraded to tower operator. Quote: I think I'm right in saying that in US practice, once you get beyond the quietest locations, the person who deals with boxes (towers) on each side is different from the one who works the levers. In UK practice, on the other hand, a signalman did everything - working the levers, keeping the trains apart (block working in old money) including the passing of trains from box to box (increasingly automated from the 1920s on) and regulating traffic (usually with the assistance of Control, which I'll come back to). So it looks to me as if there's four grades (Leverman, Operator, Assistant to the Train Director and Train Director) covering the work that, in my day, was done by the six grades of signalmen. Every signalman would cover the duties the US would expect of an Operator, but at increasing levels of workload (not necessarily area - Borough Market junction had 31 levers and two top-grade signalman but covered just the tiny bit of track between London Bridge and Cannon Street stations).Most signaling jobs in North America were either Operator or Agent/Operator. Agent/Operators were station agents (selling tickets, handling freight, etc) who also handled local block operation duties. Levermen were only assigned when an interlocking machine was too large for one man to operate for a given traffic density. Signaling has a well defined chain of command. Operators follow the schedule and it's associated movement script. Deviations from normal operation are communicated to the operator by the dispatcher. Operators always had a degree of leeway, but it was in their best interest to not get to creative. Train Directors supervised Levermen, who had the least amount of autonomy. TD's typically worked large towers in terminal areas and could make decisions about platforming trains and handling movements in/out of yards without needing to consult the dispatcher. " said: The dispatcher is the person lower level workers have to consult before they deviate from normal procedures. As technology progressed dispatchers were simply empowered to do all the work they were overseeing, themselves. When technical safety systems break down or don't exist for a specific situation, they are the ones that provide instructions. " said: There you go. What always puzzles me is that since odd situations can happen anywhere on a rail network, who is the person that lower grade signalmen would go to if say normal signaling rules had to be suspended? Who determines which trains to delay and by how much? Etc etc. Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 18:44 #76103 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:All signalmen learn the same rules, whatever their grade. These rules cover the standard procedure for normal operation and working with faults/track possessions/Single Line Working etc. The Grading system basically ensures that the signaller's workload (which varies hugely from box to box) is reflected in their pay packet. Signallers report to Network Rail's Control. Depending on the nature of a fault, either the signaller will be left to work around it as they see fit, or if it's going to cause serious disruption, Control will give instructions of what the 'game plan' is, and the signallers will implement it while carrying out all the rules and regs. In the case of train running, it's a combination of signaller's judgement and the Control offices of the TOC affected. If a train is significantly delayed, the signaller and Control will discuss options, with the latter deciding whether the train should continue, be turned round early, skip stops etc. For the more common situations that arise (e.g. express running late, should stopper run on time or be held back to follow the express), there is often an agreed method of working which the signaller would implement themselves. In the example above, it would be that if the express is X or more minutes late, the stopper will run on time and may be looped at location Y if the express has caught up with it by then. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 20:38 #76106 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I have to admit, I'm a bit puzzled by this. Surely "what to do if things break down" is all covered by the rules? Quote: What always puzzles me is that since odd situations can happen anywhere on a rail network, who is the person that lower grade signalmen would go to if say normal signaling rules had to be suspended? Who determines which trains to delay and by how much? Etc etc.Why would you suspend the rules? Surely that's a recipe for disaster! Even if you have to delay one train to give priority to another, why would you want to go against the rulebook to do so? Certainly - in the UK at least - ignoring the rules because trains are running late is a recipe for being fired and potentially prison. Edit: I suspect the only cases where signalmen have been sent to prison are ones where their bending or breaking the rules has led to death(s), but I can't be completely sure on that one. Last edited: 21/09/2015 at 20:39 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
| Signalling Grades 21/09/2015 at 22:37 #76110 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:I'm sure I once read about a signalman getting 3 months for falling asleep on the job ("endangering passengers" was the charge). But it may have been suspended, so he might not have gone inside. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Forest Pines |