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Signalling Grades 22/09/2015 at 06:05 #76112 | |
bri2808
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Thank you Jeff for the info
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Signalling Grades 22/09/2015 at 08:55 #76118 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:" said:Quite.I have to admit, I'm a bit puzzled by this. Surely "what to do if things break down" is all covered by the rules? The Rules & Regs include copious provisions for what to do in the event of failure or emergency. Operating staff (principally signalmen, drivers, guards and supervisors thereof, although station staff & shunters used to be in there as well) are required to know and implement those rules, in certain cases without delay (six bells was always the ultimate you hoped you'd never use or receive). Rules for an emergency included provisions for clearing it if the emergency passed or was dealt with; there were also some provisions for working around it in certain cases but otherwise you waited instructions. Failures and non-emergency obstructions were less angsty but no less provided for. So there are well-developed procedures for running traffic during a failure of block instruments or of track circuits or of any other signalling equipment (and in mechanically signalled areas that includes the possibility of overriding a failed track circuit to allow points to be worked). And there is Section M of the Rule Book: 'Working the traffic of a double line over a single line of rails during accident or obstruction' to give it the full title! No need for suspending any rules, let alone ignoring them. Traffic arrangements are another matter; that's where box supervisors or Control have to take the lead, but in those cases signalmen simply apply the standard operating rules to send trains a different way to usual. I wonder if Mike's thinking is influenced by what I understand to be US practice: that by default the working timetable alone gives sufficient authority to occupy and move through sections of track, unless otherwise provided? That could well lead to a situation where the timetable (and any extant train orders) are considered sufficient to ensure the safety of trains, with the necessity to suspend some normal operating rules in order thay they may be followed. That, I think, is the most crucial difference for on this side of the Pond authority to occupy or pass through sections is given by the signalling system alone and the timetable is no more than an adjunct to them. Two peoples divided by a common language indeed... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
Signalling Grades 22/09/2015 at 13:29 #76125 | |
Jersey_Mike
![]() 250 posts |
" said:Let's say signal power failed or a train breaks down and you have to run another train against the flow of traffic. Back in the day individual block operators were not in a position to make those decisions on their own so they would escalate up the chain of command. Most operators were/are puppets of the dispatcher. That's why they were all replaced with technology. :lol: Quote: What always puzzles me is that since odd situations can happen anywhere on a rail network, who is the person that lower grade signalmen would go to if say normal signaling rules had to be suspended? Who determines which trains to delay and by how much? Etc etc." said: Sorry, I meant suspend the signaling rules and replace them with track warrant rules. Dispatchers can also take interlockings out of service, although I think the points have to be secured first. A dispatcher friend of mine once speculated if he could use the "Other Instructions" line on the train order form to take the rulebook itself out of service and replace it with another set of rules. It's sort of like how a certain political party used Article 48 of the Wiemar constitution to suspend most of the same constitution! Quote: I know that things are blurred these days since many Signalers work in large signaling centers, but it seems strange that a local signaler in a traditional signalbox would be relied upon to make all manner of decisions without the consultation of a central authority. North American block operators have their own procedures booklet and most of the procedures boil down to "follow the script and do what you are told". Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 22/09/2015 at 18:01 #76131 | |
Ron_J
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The answer to those questions (and almost every other question you've ever asked on this forum) is: "American railroad practice ≠ UK railway practice" Or put more simply, we do things differently here. Last edited: 22/09/2015 at 18:01 by Ron_J Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 22/09/2015 at 18:12 #76132 | |
GeoffM
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" said:Dispatchers can also take interlockings out of service, although I think the points have to be secured first.:yikes "Hey Bob, that red signal is annoying me. Why don't we remove all vital interlocking? Who needs safety anyway?" " said: They do have telephones y'know. Communicate with people and all that jazz. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 08:39 #76151 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
But all the 'decisions' are those specifically authorised by the rules. Overriding track circuit failures to work points: only happens in manual boxes (and then, I suspect, only for manual points). Manual points are well within the view of the signalman so there is little risk provided he looks out of the window - it is a requirement of the regulations permitting the use of sealed releases that the signalman satisfies himself it is safe to do so. I suspect it goes back to the days when track circuits were an aid to signalmen, not a fundamental part of the signalling system. (It used to be common to have a single track circuit with signals within its length, ergo the signals were not track locked and signalmen had to observe movement of trains.) The regulations state very firmly that sealed releases are not to be used for traffic purposes - in other words, if you gridlocked yourself with your own stupidity then tough! Single Line Working used to involve a 'Responsible Officer' who would usually be a supervisor based close by (or in earlier times the local stationmaster). Signalmen themselves didn't have that authority. But it didn't need specific authorisation from Control. " said:
We don't normally run trains against flow of traffic (except where bidirectional signalling is provided). There is (or was ) a General Appendix instruction that if a wrong-direction movement had to be made to bring assistance to the correct end of a failed train, it was permitted for a supervisor or inspector of suitable grade to authorise it. (When I was in signalling school, our instructor told us of an occasion he'd done precisely that when working as an inspector; in those days that instruction didn't exist. It was a rare situation where assistance from the rear wasn't possible but the only viable assistant loco would approach from the rear. It also was impracticable to implement Single Line Working. Apparently the instruction appeared in the next GA amendments.) We do have - in some cases - facilities for signalboxes to 'switch out', with block circuits or TC indications connected through to the boxes on either side. There are regulations covering the procedure. All points are locked by the clearing of signals (they remain in the 'off' position during the period the box is out) and any interference would require the box to be reopened in order to get block releases to reclear the signals. Certainly no need for anyone to work other than the normal block regulations, so no authorisation needed (from a signalling point of view - the bobby who switched out without Control authority or a very good reason would probably find himself on the wrong end of a major rollicking, but that's not a signalling issue). I think there's a slight misunderstanding about the degree of consultation required. Although a signalman often has the authority to make decisions (strictly in accordance with the rules & regs) he would often have been expected to do so in consultation with (and often only on the authority of) Control. Major exception is where it won't affect traffic running. Emergencies are the big exception - you ensure the safety of the line first and tell the powers that be about it afterwards. One specific thing I mentioned - passenger trains over goods lines. The old Block Book has specific regulations for converting permissive to absolute block and vice-versa to allow for that. For the most part, that would be required for specific trains or to cover agreed & published engineering blockages; everybody would know it was going to happen and, provided the regulations were followed, there was little or no real decision making. In case of failure, the same regulations would be followed (to keep traffic on the move) but Control would need to know anyway, both to account for delays and to call the S&T (the technicians). Those regulations applied in mechanically signalled areas. In a powerbox, where the method of working was Track Circuit Block, there were no regulations for block conversion as such but there really didn't need to be as the box supervisor had the authority (and I suspect there were instructions for each such section in the Signalbox Special Instructions for the box). Same goes for a host of other such little things. As Ron_J says, your ways are not our ways... Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, AndyG |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 09:19 #76155 | |
TimTamToe
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" said:Thank goodness for that! Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 13:48 #76162 | |
Jersey_Mike
![]() 250 posts |
" said:The answer to those questions (and almost every other question you've ever asked on this forum) is:Yes you do, but I am trying to figure out how you have avoided a hierarchical system when it comes to signaling management. In most organizations around the world higher rank/grade means greater responsibility and discretion. When you try to return an item to the store without a receipt the clerk might have to get their manager because that is a check on fraud. It goes to reason there would be situations where certain ranks of persons would need to be consulted before a decision was made. Anyway, if I read things right, back in the day there were controllers who would handle larger scale routing decisions, but today with large boxes and signaling centres those decisions are generally worked out in house. Last edited: 23/09/2015 at 14:04 by Jersey_Mike Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 14:13 #76163 | |
jeffh16
![]() 40 posts |
" said:But all the 'decisions' are those specifically authorised by the rules.Signalling Technicians, that have had the specific training and competence assessments, can override track circuits in failure scenarios, to either allow route locking that is "tying up" a junction, or normalise a set of points. Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 14:47 #76165 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
" said:" said:Each Train Operating Company has a Control and they will make decisions about how the trains run (turning-back short or being diverted round the prolem. The Rules and Signalling Regulations tell the Signalman how to deal with trains affected by the problem. For example passing signals at Danger for a simple track circuit failure, Stop and Caution for kids on the line, or Single Line Working if it really has all gone tits up. Most decisions can be made by the Signalman alone, no matter what grade he is, and others, specified in the Rules or Regulations, need to have the authority of the Signalbox Supervisor or Operations Control.The answer to those questions (and almost every other question you've ever asked on this forum) is:Yes you do, but I am trying to figure out how you have avoided a hierarchical system when it comes to signaling management. In most organizations around the world higher rank/grade means greater responsibility and discretion. When you try to return an item to the store without a receipt the clerk might have to get their manager because that is a check on fraud. It goes to reason there would be situations where certain ranks of persons would need to be consulted before a decision was made. Even if not specified in the Rules a Signalman will often ask his colleagues, if there any in the box, for advice - for example should we run reversible here or talk the trains past, or whatever. Of course, if another Signalman is partly responsible for the area concerned he needs to be kept up to speed and the method of working agreed. When I was working Bristol Panel in the early 1990s we could deal with most things without formally needing permission from the Panel Supervisor. We just told him what and happened and how we were going to deal with it. He would then tell Operations Control who would presumably tell the Train Companies. Having said that, the Supervisor would always offer advice if he didn't quite agree with you, or give orders if what you suggested was totally wrong, but if it's your name on the Train Regsiter you carry the can at the end of the day! Last edited: 23/09/2015 at 14:48 by KymriskaDraken Reason: Typo Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 16:20 #76170 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
" said:Even if not specified in the Rules a Signalman will often ask his colleagues, if there any in the box, for advice - for example should we run reversible here or talk the trains past, or whatever.Signalling by committee - a tried and true method to solve any problem! Well, that, or to get half a dozen conflicting suggestions. Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 16:45 #76172 | |
madaboutrains
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Acton Canal Wharf - Grade 2 Acton Wells - Grade 6 Allerton Junction - Grade 5 Ashford - Grade 9 Aston - Grade 4 Aylesford - Grade 3 Banbury North - Grade 5 Banbury South - Grade 6 Basingstoke - Poole Panel - Grade 4 Basingstoke - West of England Panel - Grade 5 Basingstoke -Mainline Panel - Grade 7 Beeston Castle - Grade 3 Birmingham New Street - Grade 9 Bo Peep - Grade 5 Bournemouth - Grade 6 Bristol - Grade 7 Brockenhurst - Grade 5 Cambridge - Grade 7 Canterbury West - Grade 3 Carlisle - Grade 6 Castleton East Junction - Grade 3 Charlton Road - Grade 3 Chester - Grade 7 Colchester - Grade 8 Crewe Coal Yard - Grade 5 Crewe Coal Yard - Grade 7 Crewe PSB - Grade 7 Crewe Sallop Goods - Grade 5 Cuxton - Grade 3 CWACC - Grade 3 Deal - Grade 3 Deansgate Junction - Grade 5 Derby - Grade 7 Ditton - Grade 4 Doncaster - Grade 8 Dorchester - Grade 4 East Farleigh - Grade 2 Eastleigh - Grade 7 Edge Hill - Grade 5 Edgeley Junction 1 - Grade 7 Edgeley Junction 2 - Grade 7 ELL - Grade 7 Farncombe - Grade 3 Feltham - Grade 7 Folkestone East - Grade 6 Gillingham - Grade 6 Gillingham ROC - Grade 7 Gloucester - Grade 7 Greenford - Grade 3 Guildford - Grade 6 Halton Junction - Grade 3 Haslemere - Grade 3 Hastings - Grade 5 Havant - Grade 7 Hazel Grove - Grade 5 Heaton Norris - Grade 7 Helsby Junction - Grade 3 Hunts Cross - Grade 5 Kings Cross - Grade 8 Kings Dyke - Grade 3 Lancing - Grade 3/5 Leamington Spa - Grade 6 Lewes - Grade 6 Liverpool Lime Street - Grade 7 Liverpool Street - Grade 8/9 London Bridge - Grade 9 Maidstone East - Grade 5 Maidstone West - Grade 4 Manchester Piccadilly - Grade 8/9 Manchester South - Grade 7 Marylebone - Grade 7 Mickle Trafford - Grade 3 Minster - Grade 5 Newhaven Harbour - Grade 3 Newhaven Town - Grade 2 Oxford - Grade 7 Peterborough - Grade 6 Petersfield - Grade 3 Plumpton - Grade 2 Preston - Grade 7 Rainham - Grade 4 Richmond - Grade 5 Robertsbridge - Grade 5 Rochdale West - Grade 3 Rochester - Grade 5 Rye - Grade 3 Salisbury - Grade 7 Sandwich - Grade 2 Sheffield - Grade 7 Sittingbourne - Grade 6 Slough - Grade 7 South Tottenham - Grade 5 Speke Junction - Grade 5 Stafford 4 & 5 - Grade 7 Stockport 1 - Grade 7 Stockport 2 - Grade 7 Sturry - Grade 2 Swindon - Grade 6 Three Bridges - Grade 9 Tonbridge - Grade 6 Upminster - Grade 7 Upper Holloway - Grade 3 Victoria - Grade 8/9 Warrington - Grade 7 Warrington Central - Grade 4 Wateringbury - Grade 2 Wembley Mainline - Grade 9 Wembley Yard - Grade 5 West Hampstead - Grade 8 Westbury - Grade 6 Wigan Wallgate - Grade 5 Wimbledon - Grade 7/9 Winsford - Grade 6 Woking - Grade 7 Wokingham - Grade 5 York IECC - 5/6/7/8/9 RIP Feltham Panel 1 Last edited: 23/09/2015 at 16:58 by madaboutrains Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Splodge, KymriskaDraken, Jezalenko, flabberdacks, bri2808, Spiketheterrier |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 18:14 #76182 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
" said:" said:Indeed. And you know the chips are really down when someone gets the Rule Book out.Even if not specified in the Rules a Signalman will often ask his colleagues, if there any in the box, for advice - for example should we run reversible here or talk the trains past, or whatever.Signalling by committee - a tried and true method to solve any problem! Well, that, or to get half a dozen conflicting suggestions. Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 22:23 #76196 | |
Hooverman
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Three Bridges ASC Grade 9 Three Bridges ROC Grades 6/7/8 Even wrong direction moments due to incidents or failures is pretty much done without the shift managers authority at our place, they are just advised if they haven't suggested it already. I think half the problem with our American cousin is that his confusing the whole of the opps/control grades up with just the signalling grade which forms only part of that structure, but in its self has many grades depending on how complex and busy it is. In my time I've been a signalman Class B, Class C, Signaller Grade 4, Grade 7, Grade 8 and finally a Grade 9 as I've worked my way up from a small one man machnical Signalbox to a multi panel Singnalling Centre. Last edited: 23/09/2015 at 22:24 by Hooverman Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 23/09/2015 at 22:32 #76198 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
" said:Indeed. And you know the chips are really down when someone gets the Rule Book out.Which usually involves the discovery of several obscure clauses that no one remembers ever seeing before... Last edited: 23/09/2015 at 22:32 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: flabberdacks |
Signalling Grades 24/09/2015 at 08:13 #76206 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:" said:Indeed. And you know the chips are really down when someone gets the Rule Book out.Which usually involves the discovery of several obscure clauses that no one remembers ever seeing before... ...but which, if suitably interpreted, often provide a (just about) legal way out of the predicament ![]() Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Danny252, flabberdacks |
Signalling Grades 24/09/2015 at 09:01 #76208 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Mike - and anyone else who's not familiar with British ways of working: have a look at this http://www.scribd.com/doc/282463538/LMS-Telegraph-Bells-Regulations-1929 Several words of caution. These regulations were a Midland Railway speciality, I don't think any other company used them, and they applied to goods lines only. They remained in use into the 1950s but were finally superseded by 'proper' permissive block after a couple of nasties, including the Oakley collision of 1949 http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Oakley1949.pdf In this method of working there was no 'Is Line Clear' signal but the descriptive bell codes were used for the 'Train Entering Section' signal. If you want to get a good idea of how it would be done on an Absolute Block line, have a look here http://www.signalbox.org/block.shtml (the author was a relief signalman on the Midland Main Line into London, the area now covered by West Hampstead sim, and this is one of the best and most authoritative explanations I've seen). You'll see how comprehensive the instructions for emergencies, exceptional and out-of-course working are. For the most part, signalmen would make their decisions in accordance with these regulations without needing to refer to Control. Situations where specific reference was needed were clearly laid down, but even then the requirements were absolutely clear. Not included here would be the provisions in the Signal Box Special Instructions that would lay down the special clearing points for trains not conveying passengers (most often the home signal, or a specified set of trap points in advance of them); if passenger trains were being worked over these lines the default 440yd clearing point would of course be applied. (This might all seem a bit loose to modern eyes, but remember in those days the norm was to have 'free' starting signals - no control by the block circuits - so the only thing missing once passenger trains were authorised would be the block indicators. And of course Absolute Block regulation 25(a)(iii) provided that if block indicators failed, trains were to be worked using bells only, so the situation would be no different to working passenger lines with a block failure.) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Hawk777, DWeb |
Signalling Grades 27/09/2015 at 15:50 #76301 | |
MrBitsy
![]() 121 posts |
" said:At the end of the day I was told I had passed to grade 8 and was offered Kings Cross or West Hampstead.I've seen the short BBC video inside Kings Cross box, in addition to the sim, it looks like an incredible place to work. Have also seen some photos of West Hampstead box too. What drove your decision to pick West Hampstead (if the reasons aren't too personal)?[/quote] Temporary insanity? ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 27/09/2015 at 15:59 #76302 | |
MrBitsy
![]() 121 posts |
" said:At the end of the day I was told I had passed to grade 8 and was offered Kings Cross or West Hampstead." said: I've seen the short BBC video inside Kings Cross box, in addition to the sim, it looks like an incredible place to work. Have also seen some photos of West Hampstead box too. What drove your decision to pick West Hampstead (if the reasons aren't too personal)?Temporary insanity? ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply The following user said thank you: flabberdacks |
Signalling Grades 26/10/2015 at 22:42 #77290 | |
EDMann
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Ashford IECC also has a Grade 3 panel, which works the Marshlink line (fringing with Rye). The service is sparse so the bobby on duty has to do some of the other workstations' paperwork! Rochester is a 6. Guildford is a 7. Cuxton is a 2. East Kent (Gillingham) ROC has been temporarily downgraded from 7 to 6 (with some bobbies retaining a personal 7). Woking also has a relatively new, lower-graded panel covering the Alton line (Grade 4, IIRC). Think Tonbridge and Robertsbridge are slightly lower than listed - will make some enquiries... Last edited: 28/10/2015 at 14:41 by EDMann Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 26/10/2015 at 22:44 #77291 | |
EDMann
![]() 2 posts |
" said:
It's a 6. Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 10/07/2016 at 22:25 #83530 | |
Guts
![]() 595 posts |
Wembley Yard is Grade 6 Doncaster is Grade 8/6 Suburban Workstation is Grade 7 Willesden Carriage Shed North is Grade 3 Willesden Carriage Shed South is Grade 3 Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 11/07/2016 at 08:04 #83532 | |
madaboutrains
![]() 313 posts |
" said:Ashford IECC also has a Grade 3 panel, which works the Marshlink line (fringing with Rye). The service is sparse so the bobby on duty has to do some of the other workstations' paperwork!Woking panel 3 (Alton Line) is a grade 5. RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 28/07/2016 at 20:16 #83833 | |
TimB2010
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Hi I have just happened on this post while killing time on the forum. My tip would be to keep applying. I have been applying for about a year, and my fifth application has been successful - I am just waiting a start date as I have now passed my medical. Never give up... Tim Log in to reply |
Signalling Grades 28/07/2016 at 23:37 #83838 | |
pm77
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" said:Yes, but certain criteria must be followed... 2 Principles of Giving a Release The signaller may under the provisions of Rule Book module T1A request that a release be given: a) for a failed track circuit which is locking points, solely to enable the points to be moved, but a signal must not be allowed to clear over the affected track circuit; b) for a failed track circuit or other failed signalling equipment which is locking a route, solely to allow the release of the affected route so that signals can be worked for movements clear of the failure; c) for a track circuit occupied for an extended time by engineering work, derailment or other exceptional circumstances, solely to allow the working of signals for movements clear of the obstruction; d) for a track circuit occupied for an extended time by failure, engineering work, failed train or other exceptional circumstances, solely to allow a level crossing to be opened to road traffic (see Rule Book module TW8); e) for a track circuit, to allow single line working by pilotman (see Rule Book module P1), but Rule Book module T1A does not permit the release of a control that will allow 'line clear' to be given on any block indicator (although Rule Book module TS3 requires the signaller, when single line working is in operation, to use the block indicator for the line being used for single line working to signal trains in both directions, if this is possible); f) to obtain a token to release a ground frame, during single line working by pilotman (see Rule Book module T1A). A release given under this authority shall only apply for one train, Unless authorised by a Supervisor/Engineer Log in to reply |