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| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 17:00 #80980 | |
AlexRail575
136 posts |
Hello! I think the title is quite clear. I'm asking because those things don't seem to be easy to find, if they even are there. Except for the diagrams provided as game manuals for some SimSig simulations (which are not official diagrams. Furthermore, they don't have signal mileages present) and a couple of other isolated examples (see this: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Signalling:SAK+Railway (site has plenty of other Scottish region diagrams, as well) or this (actually, it's no diagram, only a list of signals with their position): http://signallingnotices.org.uk/scans//2675/NR%20SC%2017%20Stirling%20Kincardine%20Notice.pdf). Seeing the presence of the Sectional Appendix and other material related to railway safety online, I don't see why Network Rail doesn't provide access to signaling diagrams, at least not officially. Is it for fear of vandalism or am I missing something? Thanks from Canada, Alex Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 17:25 #80981 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
I suspect the reason they're not public is "because we've always done it that way". However, I believe some people have had luck with individual FoI requests for a handful of diagrams at a time. Peter Hicks, of Open Train Times, has opened up masses of data that was previously not for public consumption and constantly fights for more - mostly live stuff like timetables, running information etc, but I know he also wants the static data like scheme plans to be public. Australia has a whole load of data on public websites (static) but little to no live information public. The US is notoriously secretive, probably more so in the last 10-15 years, probably a paralysing fear of something happening to the information - even something good happening. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 17:57 #80983 | |
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AlexRail575
136 posts |
Which of course brings forward a logical fallacy: live information, in the UK, and as far as I know, is available through Network Rail data feeds (here: https://datafeeds.networkrail.co.uk/ntrod/login), which to understand you must write your own program to interpret the data, as it's given in a very raw format. And, you don't have anything to help you interpret the given data except maybe the basic information from the NR websites and relatively few details about the actual track layout which you can put together from searches across dozens of websites. I don't know anything about such information being available even here in Canada. For the most part, railways here are barely used for anything else than freight trains (disregarding underground and commuter lines in major towns): there's more passenger trains in Glasgow/London/whichever_other_major_city_you_can_think_of in one day than there are in the whole of Canada in 1 week (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Via_Rail_routes). As for railway schematic information (in Canada), people that are interested in the running of trains (namely, those that have some business related to the thing) probably have access to that information already, there's not much public demand for it to be released, and it's in private hands anyway. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 18:52 #80984 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
I've had quite a lot of involvement with Freedom of Information requests for signalling plans and data since Network Rail became subject to FoI legislation last year. The NR Route signalling team I work for recieves two or three requests a month, some clearly from people who know exactly what they are talking about and some which are more er... vague. The Route senior management have made a policy decision that signalling layout plans, power distribution, SSI data and circuit diagrams are not suitable for public release on grounds of security. The reasoning is that FoI disclosure effectively makes the informaton you release available to anyone in the entire world, whether they are a harmless enthusiast with an academic interest or an IS sponsored terrorist planning to stage a high speed collision. There is real potential for someone with even a passing understanding of electrical principles and nefarious intent to use the information supplied to cause all kinds of chaos. When requests for signalling layout diagrams come through from the central FoI co-ordination team in Milton Keynes, we offer the (very much) less detailed maps used to plan engineering work rather than hide behind the statutory "security" excemption. The Route refuses requests for specific circuit diagrams, SSI data and power feeding arrangements. For what it's worth I would tend to agree with this policy. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 21:08 #80985 | |
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AlexRail575
136 posts |
I understand the rationale behind those arguments. I further do agree with you that providing such (possibly) sensitive data as circuit diagrams or interlocking data could possibly lead to some mindless people doing crazy stuff. However, I don't understand why Network Rail wouldn't wish to release signaling layout plans (besides the 'it's always been like that'). I mean, just the basic info regarding the identity of signals, their type (mechanical, colour light, shunt, number of aspects), their mileage. I don't see how that kind of info could lead to anything worse than possible vandalism. Also, given that their purpose (that is, being visible), signals aren't such a hard thing to spot (and possibly vandalise), and there's already, to my understanding of how signals work, plenty of failsafe mechanisms (be it TPWS or AWS, the working of track circuits (any obstruction on the line sets the signal to red), ...) present to prevent catastrophic accidents. From Canada, Alex Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 21:36 #80986 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
The maps we do allow to be released contain the basic information you describe. The actual signalling plans contain very much more detailed information which, apart from being almost incomprehensible to a layman, could be used by those with a bit of background knowledge who are intent on mischief. As a Route we simply don't have signalling records that fall inbetween the very basic and the very detailed categories. As an analogy; if you had a hospital appointment and wanted to know where the outpatient clinic was located you wouldn't expect your local health authority to publish detailed architectural plans for your local hospital showing the locations of all the emergency backup generators on their website, they'd just have a simple outline map because that's all the public needs.
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| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 02/03/2016 at 23:56 #80987 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
Fascinated by this Ron, I've worked in a team subject to frequent FoIs and we've often had to deal with disappointed... customers?... who don't feel we've addressed their request. Presumably your route policy is such that the FoI team at MK can use that as a foil for any further response and thus it doesn't get to you? It's a great tool for transparency but frankly some stuff needs protecting - considering how remote some installations are I can see how it would be fairly easy to manipulate signalling systems undetected with the right know how. However I do see the argument that organisations could be better at deciding which data could, if released, bring (safe) benefit. I'm a layperson looking in, but it strikes me that the railway must produce an unfathomable amount of data which if used correctly could vastly improve things like delay reporting etc, for benefit to both the industry and passengers/freight customers. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 12:45 #80988 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:However, the Act doesn't have an exemption for "somebody could use this for a bad thing". Almost everything the government holds could be used by someone to do a bad thing, so that would make a mockery of the entire purpose of the Act. You actually need to show that it is "**required** for the purpose of safeguarding national security" (my emphasis). The fact that lots of signalling layout plans have got into the public domain (Collectors Corner used to sell them, for goodness sake) shows that it isn't necessary. Yes, someone could set up false feeds to a dozen track circuits so that it would be possible for a signaller to route two trains towards each other, if they knew the right track circuits and could somehow persuade the signaller. But it would be a lot simpler to just wind some points by hand and attach a battery to the green lamp on the relevant signal. You're basically proposing movie plot threats. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 13:09 #80989 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:It's not that secretive, people just don't know where to look. There's new stuff popping up on Multimodalways all the time. Conrail features the most complete set of interlocking charts. http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/rrs.html Because North American railroads are privately owned, one cannot use freedom of information requests for the information. However because there are sales and mergers and layoffs, you have a good number of "former employees" selling the detritus of their previous employment at train shows. Interlocking wiring diagrams (I've found some in derelict towers) require a large format scanner to digitize, so they tend to stay in their physical form. " said: The Route senior management have made a policy decision that signalling layout plans, power distribution, SSI data and circuit diagrams are not suitable for public release on grounds of security. The reasoning is that FoI disclosure effectively makes the informaton you release available to anyone in the entire world, whether they are a harmless enthusiast with an academic interest or an IS sponsored terrorist planning to stage a high speed collision. There is real potential for someone with even a passing understanding of electrical principles and nefarious intent to use the information supplied to cause all kinds of chaos.While security is a common excuse, from my experience talking with front office staff the real reasons to withhold information are almost always self-serving. For example the original track charts for Grand Central Terminal were scanned years ago, but a single employee restricted access to them citing "security". In reality he knew that if he was the only person with that information he would have guaranteed job security. The scans were only made more widely available after he retired. I also hear many stories about how much signaling vendors over engineer the systems they sell to public transport agencies, probably with the help of kickbacks. Having the documentation available would expose such practices to scrutiny. Also many signal departments keep information on lockdown so that the railroads cannot contract out the signal maintenance work to lower cost providers. The proliferation of e-documents in pdf has made getting certain information easier. For example I was lucky enough to get a leaked copy of the NYC Subway's interlocking diagram document, however since that time they actually broke the document up into many smaller ones to make it significantly harder for the information to travel around. The best way to combat BS security excuses is for employees to leak the information. Doing so is trivial and undetectable with basic precautions. Just let the info cool off for a couple of years or until after retirement. " said: The maps we do allow to be released contain the basic information you describe. The actual signalling plans contain very much more detailed information which, apart from being almost incomprehensible to a layman, could be used by those with a bit of background knowledge who are intent on mischief. As a Route we simply don't have signalling records that fall inbetween the very basic and the very detailed categories. As an analogy; if you had a hospital appointment and wanted to know where the outpatient clinic was located you wouldn't expect your local health authority to publish detailed architectural plans for your local hospital showing the locations of all the emergency backup generators on their website, they'd just have a simple outline map because that's all the public needs.What about information of a historic nature covering interlockings that have since been replaced? (I can recall after a recent re-signaling I found the wiring charts for one interlocking tossed unceremoniously in a skip with the rest of the project waste.) How do the documents you described compare with the North American interlocking charts I linked to in terms of level of detail? Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 16:38 #80991 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:The Route senior management have made a policy decision that signalling layout plans, power distribution, SSI data and circuit diagrams are not suitable for public release on grounds of security. The reasoning is that FoI disclosure effectively makes the informaton you release available to anyone in the entire world, whether they are a harmless enthusiast with an academic interest or an IS sponsored terrorist planning to stage a high speed collision. There is real potential for someone with even a passing understanding of electrical principles and nefarious intent to use the information supplied to cause all kinds of chaos.There's not a lot that can be done with scheme plans, control tables, TD stepping tables, or even SSI data. External wiring/circuitry perhaps but, as Clive says, you'd have better luck with Great Train Robbery style shenanigans. " said: " said:They're historical though - well, I suppose they could still be in service.It's not that secretive, people just don't know where to look. There's new stuff popping up on Multimodalways all the time. Conrail features the most complete set of interlocking charts. " said: How do the documents you described compare with the North American interlocking charts I linked to in terms of level of detail?He described several different documents but the interlocking charts in your link above are akin to UK scheme plans - placement of signals, aspects possible, switch/track/signal IDs etc. Neither show aspect sequencing except in rare cases, flank locking, or other signalling-specific stuff. The US "interlocking" refers to the area of control which drivers/engineers are aware of, whereas referring to an interlocking in the UK normally means the actual gubbins, be it relays, mechanical locking, or CBI - and drivers are neither required or are even aware of which interlocking they're "in". SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 17:13 #80993 | |
madaboutrains
316 posts |
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/glasgow_suburban_lines_diagrams#incoming-729672
RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 17:34 #80994 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:Quite a bit of it is still in service and the historic stuff is simply interesting from a historic point of view. In the Pittsburgh Line charts some are CAD from the 1980s/90s resignaling, others are hand drawn from the 1970's or before. Cool stuff. How do the documents you described compare with the North American interlocking charts I linked to in terms of level of detail?[/quote] " said: Are scheme plans more available? " said: I suspect that due to the more competitive railway environment in North America it was necessary to account for operation and maintenance where different railway firms interacted with eachother. The charts I linked actually show the division of costs and the maintenance limits. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 18:29 #80995 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:Are scheme plans more available?Not really, unfortunately. It's who you know etc. " said: " said:I was explaining to our UK peers why those US interlocking diagrams you linked to don't contain much in the way of interlockings in the UK sense of the word.I suspect that due to the more competitive railway environment in North America it was necessary to account for operation and maintenance where different railway firms interacted with eachother. The charts I linked actually show the division of costs and the maintenance limits. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 03/03/2016 at 23:10 #80998 | |
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AlexRail575
136 posts |
So, my understanding of the issue is that some diagrams can be found - though they're mostly historical. More modern versions are available - but you need to make a FoI request to get them... Seems to me that it would be much less trouble for Network Rail to just dump them some place online, as with the Sectional Appendix, than to have to respond to requests for them. But then again, I can't claim to understand the reasons behind those policies. And then there's the security argument. Ok, maybe some specific circuit info can be (if someone really wants to take the trouble to do so) used for malicious intent, but again - if the people that wish to do it really got a lot of time to spare the effort. The rest, however, is not. I mean, how can you potentially set up a collision between train A and train B, only knowing that both pass at junction C, and that signals protecting junction C are located at points X and Y. Nonsense, of course, but you get the point. Last edited: 04/03/2016 at 04:06 by AlexRail575 Reason: clarified what I wanted to say Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 04/08/2016 at 10:49 #83936 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
I note that a recent FOI request for signalling diagrams has been met with an outright refusal on security grounds rather than a release of the basic diagrams which have previously been released. In the response it was also stated that a review is underway and initial findings have concluded that some of the signalling information which has previously been disclosed by successful FOI requests may in the future by refused on security grounds. I wonder if it's now considered a security threat for the public to know the location of the signals. Last edited: 04/08/2016 at 10:51 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 04/08/2016 at 11:15 #83937 | |
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Kage
65 posts 
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I just saw a new reply there, refusing signal diagrams not only for 31 Law enforcement. (1)Information which is not exempt information by virtue of section 30 is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice— (a)the prevention or detection of crime, but also 38 Health and safety. (1)Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to— (a)endanger the physical or mental health of any individual both seem a bit of a stretch to me :) I figure they're getting a lot of requests like this now, and don't really want to release anything like this until they can figure out all the complications. They also get a lot of requests like 'can I have all the signal diagrams for the ecml' etc. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 04/08/2016 at 11:56 #83938 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts
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" said:I note that a recent FOI request for signalling diagrams has been met with an outright refusal on security grounds rather than a release of the basic diagrams which have previously been released. In the response it was also stated that a review is underway and initial findings have concluded that some of the signalling information which has previously been disclosed by successful FOI requests may in the future by refused on security grounds.I don't think it's security in the counter-terrorism sense we've become accustomed to in recent years, it's more likely to prevent cable theft and vandalism etc. Network Rail hold an awful lot of information about their signalling system, but one thing that isn't readily produced (at an official, company-wide level) are "simple signalling layout diagrams" - NR have no need for them at the end of the day, they can use the much more detailed info they have available to them. It's a fine line they have to tread. On the one hand 99.9% of these types of requests are from members of the enthusiast community who have no intention of inflicting any harm on the railway. But FOI request responses are generally published publicly - anyone can read the result, and their intentions are at best Unknown. Train operators tend to produce simpler signalling layout maps for driver route learning purposes. They're private companies and this not subject to FOI, but a well-directed enquiry may yield better results. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 04/08/2016 at 21:06 #83961 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:.... I wonder if it's now considered a security threat for the public to know the location of the signals.In which case Google will need to do a lot of masking/hiding? I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 04/08/2016 at 22:28 #83966 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
It's not the location information that's the issue.
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| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 05/08/2016 at 04:12 #83971 | |
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Kage
65 posts
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Someone else asked for NX panel schematic diagrams, I read it as plans for the actual tile panel layout, but I guess was interpreted as signal schematics, but in any case was rejected on the grounds of "Disclosure in this case could consequently increase the capability for criminals to target parts of the Network Rail infrastructure by revealing the location of intruder alarms and power supplies"
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| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 16/06/2017 at 14:27 #95857 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
Looks like there has been a further tightening of policy. Previously information on "S Class" data was released which would allow anyone with access to the NR live data feeds to calculate signal aspects, routes set, TRTS indications, track circuit occupancy, point positions, and level crossing indications. This information however has now been refused on security grounds.
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| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 16/06/2017 at 17:14 #95863 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Zoe in post 95857 said:Looks like there has been a further tightening of policy. Previously information on "S Class" data was released which would allow anyone with access to the NR live data feeds to calculate signal aspects, routes set, TRTS indications, track circuit occupancy, point positions, and level crossing indications. This information however has now been refused on security grounds.Has the person requesting the data gone back and pointed out how much of it is already in the public domain? "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 16/06/2017 at 18:08 #95865 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
I remember a few months back NR said (as a result of a refusal of a request for some signalling diagrams) that they were conducting a review into which information could be disclosed and that initial findings suggested that some types of information which had previously been disclosed would in the future need to be be withheld due to security concerns. Looks like this policy has now been applied to the information relating to S Class data.
Last edited: 16/06/2017 at 18:10 by Zoe Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 18/06/2017 at 11:56 #95898 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
Also it's worth remembering that as NR is such a large and diverse company with some of the data requested going back to the "Pre-computer" era that the information is held in many different places in many different formats. It is also worth noting that whilst NR produces "signalling diagrams" they are normally done by outside contractors and often don't make visibility within NR. For example, the recent resignalling schemes around London Bridge. I work in control and part of my job requires that I know where signals are, TPWS grids, TPWS speeds, points etc, all of which are gleaned from a signalling diagram, but despite numerous enquires with the relevant departments, we still do not have that access, and more importantly nor do some of the S&T teams that require to work on that equipment! NR do have a national records database where all this stuff is supposed to be stored but imagine the task they have to upload every single document that is hand written. And that's only if it is sent to them. So sometimes that the information is just not readily available within the industry, let alone to the public Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, DriverCurran |
| Signaling diagrams - can they be found anywhere online? 18/06/2017 at 14:15 #95899 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
Yes, sometimes a FOI request to NR will indeed be met with an "Information not held" repsonse. In this case though it was confirmed that NR did hold the information requested but could not release it due the security risk associated with disclosing it to the public.
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