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| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 08/06/2017 at 17:03 #95747 | |
thickmike
37 posts |
Hi - any of you knowledgeable lot help with this? On the 12:55 ex Moor St today. Stopped at what would have been Banbury's outer home. After appx 6 minutes standing, diverted via UGL thereby missing out Banbury stop. My question is why not route us through down main plat 2 or down loop plat 1 allowing station stop as timetabled - I thought all platforms at Banbury are now bi-directional. Having been sent to Bicester and waited for the next down one, running in to Banbury from south the orange jackets were playing with the axle counter heads south of the station - implying the issue was on the south end of platform 3. Anyone know the real reason? Thanks Mike Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 08/06/2017 at 17:12 #95748 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts 
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thickmike in post 95747 said:Hi - any of you knowledgeable lot help with this? On the 12:55 ex Moor St today. Stopped at what would have been Banbury's outer home. After appx 6 minutes standing, diverted via UGL thereby missing out Banbury stop. My question is why not route us through down main plat 2 or down loop plat 1 allowing station stop as timetabled - I thought all platforms at Banbury are now bi-directional. Having been sent to Bicester and waited for the next down one, running in to Banbury from south the orange jackets were playing with the axle counter heads south of the station - implying the issue was on the south end of platform 3. Anyone know the real reason?The Axle Counter Failed to Clear following passage of a freight train departing the UGL. WMSC Cherwell Valley WS were Route Locked out of UGL toward Up Main; thus the only place you could go was via Up Goods. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: thickmike |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 08/06/2017 at 17:25 #95749 | |
wellgroomed
110 posts |
Without wishing to appear pedantic, the 'Up Goods' is actually the 'Up Loop'.
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| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 08/06/2017 at 22:59 #95757 | |
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thickmike
37 posts |
Thanks very much for the reply James - personally I would have been happy to wait a bit since the following Birmingham to Marylebone appeared to have run through normally and for us Banbury passengers it added an hour to the journey but not to be - who makes the decision in that situation? Anyway thanks and my most abject apologies for calling the Up Loop the up goods loop - I shall now go and sit in a corner. Mike Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 08:34 #95760 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts
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thickmike in post 95757 said:Thanks very much for the reply James - personally I would have been happy to wait a bit since the following Birmingham to Marylebone appeared to have run through normally and for us Banbury passengers it added an hour to the journey but not to be - who makes the decision in that situation?Decision would have been made jointly by Chiltern and Network Rail Control - and not to call Banbury would have been a difficult decision for Chiltern to take; they would have been well aware of the unpopularity with customers on-board when the decision was made. With Modern Axle Counters such as those installed at Banbury, you can carry out a reset of the section by running a train through the affected section at caution. It's likely that your train ended up as a kind of sacrificial lamb to "sweep" the section. You had to go via the Loop because the points would still be locked that way until your train swept the section; but (and I can only surmise as I don't work for Chiltern) my guesstimate is that they viewed it as inconveniencing a relatively small group of passengers to get the line reopened for everyone else; versus waiting much longer time, presumably with further Chiltern and XC services trapped unable to get into Banbury Station behind you, for technicians to come and rectify the fault on the ground. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: thickmike |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 09:46 #95761 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts
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They missed a trick with the resignalling st Banbury. With Princes Risborough to Aynho Junction bidirectional, it would have made sense to extend it to Banbury.
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| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 13:12 #95766 | |
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thickmike
37 posts |
Thanks again James - I hadn't realised you could reset axle counters by taking a second train through - we stopped at every signal from what I am calling the outer home through two (I think) in the loop - assume each time the driver was talked by. Your explanation of "sacrificial lamb" fits perfectly with what I saw happening. Thanks again Mike Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 13:47 #95767 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
thickmike in post 95766 said:Thanks again James - I hadn't realised you could reset axle counters by taking a second train throughIt's not quite that simple. The technician changes the count value for the section to zero. Then a train is run through the section. Once it's clear, the train crew have to confirm the train is complete and the technician checks that the count is still zero. If both tests pass, the section can be used normally. Ah, http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HSE_Severn%20Tunnel1991.pdf has a description of the axle counter equipment and the procedures. Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 14:00 #95768 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts
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The new systems don't even need the technician in some instances Clive. The axle counters at Banbury are modern AzLM type, which are far more sophisticated than those involved in the Severn Tunnel collision. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: JamesN |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 14:38 #95769 | |
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JamesN
1607 posts
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clive in post 95767 said:thickmike in post 95766 said:It isn't quite that simple no; but as Mr F says there's no S&T involvement - couple of mouse-clicks for the signalman then caution the train through is all that's involved on these more modern systems.Thanks again James - I hadn't realised you could reset axle counters by taking a second train throughIt's not quite that simple. The technician changes the count value for the section to zero. Then a train is run through the section. Once it's clear, the train crew have to confirm the train is complete and the technician checks that the count is still zero. If both tests pass, the section can be used normally. To prevent abuse once a reset has been used it can't be used again for 24h; and each section generally has 2 resets - in short you get 2 chances to clear the section. If it fails hard Down a 3rd time inside that 24h period techs have to attend to do the reset. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: thickmike |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 09/06/2017 at 18:30 #95776 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
clive in post 95767 said:thickmike in post 95766 said:As Steve and James have said, that is not the method here. IIRC the sequence is as follows: the signaller selects the axle counter reset option on the screen which involves clicking on a hollow roundel adjacent to the track section in question (I think MCS requires keyboard input too). There are a number of conditions under which a reset can take place: conditions not met and you won't get a reset. If you do then the track section is highlighted on the screen with a coloured background. Any routes through it are now Aspect Restricted, meaning you can set a route but you won't get a proceed aspect. Once a train sweeps the section it is now fully reset and can be used as normal.Thanks again James - I hadn't realised you could reset axle counters by taking a second train throughIt's not quite that simple. The technician changes the count value for the section to zero. Then a train is run through the section. Once it's clear, the train crew have to confirm the train is complete and the technician checks that the count is still zero. If both tests pass, the section can be used normally. For engineering work where on track machines are not reliable enough to operate axle counters, or jump on and off the track mid section, there are options to set it up for disturbed working. Sections can later be cleared even from adjacent tracks where the designers have deemed them visible. ^ May not be 100% correct but that's the gist of modern axle counter resets on MCS/Westcad/IECC. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: JamesN, thickmike |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 30/08/2017 at 21:51 #101380 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
pretty good description from Geoff. There have been all sorts of systems over the years, however recent systems have 2 types of reset. (Conditional or Unconditional) A condition reset is conditional upon the last count of the system being an axle exiting the section (or the system being in a disturbed state). This type of reset would not work if you had a road rail machine enter the section and then get off of the track. The reset process is controlled by the interlocking. The interlocking will not allow a reset to occur if there is a route set over the section. In automatic sections the auto signal must be replaced to danger for the reset request to be accepted. As Geoff says the reset must be a two stage process which on VDU systems is:- Stage 1 - selecting the roundal Stage 2 - confirming by typing the name of the section using the keyboard Once reset it will release route locking, points will be free to move but it will not be possible to clear a signal over the section. The section will be subject to aspect restriction. In order to set a route over a section of track that is subject to an aspect restriction you must apply a reminder to the signal and you need to use the REM Overide facility to set the route. As Geoff says once a train has swept the section the aspect restriction os automatically lifted. The signaller can then remove the REM from the signal and normal service resumes. Unconditional resets can only take place if an EPR or STR was placed on the section before it became failed or disturbed. EPR = Engineers Possession Reminder, STR = Special Train Reminder. If the section has an EPR/STR applied you can reset it regardless of whether last count was in or out. (so a road railer getting off of the track is not a problem). Once reset and the EPR/STR removed you can clear signals over the section without any aspect restriction. You cannot clear a signal over a section that has EPR or STR applied. Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 30/08/2017 at 21:56 #101382 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
A picture paints 1000 words. Hopefully I've attached 3 files to this post.    Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| Banbury axle counter issue 080617 01/09/2017 at 22:03 #101438 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
JamesN in post 95769 said:clive in post 95767 said:At least with our axle counters, we can only perform a conditional reset if the axle counter has had a miscount or has been disturbed a straight failure will require the techs to fix it and I'm pretty sure that once the reset has taken place any points will be free to be moved by any routes set over them but the protecting signal becomes aspcted restricted until the sweeper train has entered the section under examination of the line which allows a new count to start and restores the axle counter back to the interlocking. So far we have never had one fail to clear over points but plenty on plain line in the 3years we've had our new ones with EPRs.thickmike in post 95766 said:It isn't quite that simple no; but as Mr F says there's no S&T involvement - couple of mouse-clicks for the signalman then caution the train through is all that's involved on these more modern systems.Thanks again James - I hadn't realised you could reset axle counters by taking a second train throughIt's not quite that simple. The technician changes the count value for the section to zero. Then a train is run through the section. Once it's clear, the train crew have to confirm the train is complete and the technician checks that the count is still zero. If both tests pass, the section can be used normally. Log in to reply |