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E button on Auto's

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E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 15:34 #1379
caedave
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Although relating to a Sim under test, this is a real NR question.

What are the regs for the use of the emergency stop button on auto sigs, can it be used to regulate approaching trains.

Reason for question. Controlling the approach to a trailing junction in an ARS area. Heavy traffic on both Up and Down main lines and require
to turn a Down train onto the branch (facing). With the close heading in the Up direction the ARS resets the Up Main route as soon as the proceeding train has cleared the Jcn, thus preventing the Down train route to the branch setting.

If I use the "Cancel Route" there is a two minute delay before the new route can be set, plus the shut down of the area ARS.
This results in delays of 3 to 5 mins on some services.

If I use the E button on the auto on the approach to the junction controlled signal, as soon as the proceeding train has passed it, then the ARS
does not reset the Up main route, and the Down train crossing route can be set as soon as the junction is clear.
I then clear the Auto E button as soon as the crossing route has set. Net result, normally no delay.

BUT CAN I DO THIS. Is this right under current regulations.

Dave M.

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E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 15:34 #9732
caedave
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142 posts
Although relating to a Sim under test, this is a real NR question.

What are the regs for the use of the emergency stop button on auto sigs, can it be used to regulate approaching trains.

Reason for question. Controlling the approach to a trailing junction in an ARS area. Heavy traffic on both Up and Down main lines and require
to turn a Down train onto the branch (facing). With the close heading in the Up direction the ARS resets the Up Main route as soon as the proceeding train has cleared the Jcn, thus preventing the Down train route to the branch setting.

If I use the "Cancel Route" there is a two minute delay before the new route can be set, plus the shut down of the area ARS.
This results in delays of 3 to 5 mins on some services.

If I use the E button on the auto on the approach to the junction controlled signal, as soon as the proceeding train has passed it, then the ARS
does not reset the Up main route, and the Down train crossing route can be set as soon as the junction is clear.
I then clear the Auto E button as soon as the crossing route has set. Net result, normally no delay.

BUT CAN I DO THIS. Is this right under current regulations.

Dave M.

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E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 19:27 #9736
mfcooper
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The button in question is called an "Emergency Replacement Switch" (ERS). I am under the impression that this implies it is only for use in an emergency...

When using ARS, the use of Reminders to stop the ARS setting unwanted routes is commonly used. Depending on the situation depends if the reminders are applied to the Entry or the Exit signal. I would use reminders in this circumstance, and not the ERS.

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E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 20:39 #9738
daza7789
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59 posts
As Matt says emergency replacement switches are what they say on the tin, and as for regulation in ARS areas a reminder should be used (however with real life systems such as liverpool st one would hope that the ARS code is set to sort this issue out by its self...(yer..right!)).

the only circumstances that some ERS's can be used for other than emergencies (if box instructions allow it as not all ERS's are to be relied upon) is to protect engeineering work (T1A/T2/T3 and even T12 in 1 circumstance i know) temporary block working, and sometimes to protect automatic crossings when on local control.

saying that im sure Matt can think of some more.

Daz

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E button on Auto's 20/06/2010 at 22:58 #9741
postal
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Following the comments from Matt and Darren about use of the ERS, can I pick the collective brains of those who look after us in the real world about the procedure for protecting a user-operated level crossing while a movement of a slow-moving vehicle or livestock has been authorised by the signal operator?

I assume there is a need to put a reminder on the first operator-controlled signal on each line in advance of the crossing. Is it permissible in those circumstances to use the ERS to put a signal to red and then collar it, or should the signaller track back along the line to the first "operator-controlled" signal, put that to red and then place a reminder? And given Darren's comments in regard to ARS-controlled areas, are things different where there is no ARS?

Apologies if it is all getting a bit arcane. However, it would be nice to know how to run a sim as a reflection of real life.

JG

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 00:13 #9743
mfcooper
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I think that circumstance would depend on the signal box.

At Stratford NLL, in our Signal Box Special Instructions, we have the following paragraph...

Quote:

Emergency replacement switches

You must not rely on any emergency replacement switches controlled from this signal box to give signal protection, or to keep a signal at danger, for any of the following reasons:
* Protection of the line (modules T2 and T3)
* Work on signalling equipment (module T1A)
* Temporary Block Working (module T1B section 20)
If we had crossings, then I would guess that would be stated as well.

HOWEVER - there are other locations where ERS's can be replied upon. It all depends... :-S

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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 01:39 #9744
Sacro
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postal said:
I assume there is a need to put a reminder on the first operator-controlled signal on each line in advance of the crossing.
The reminder would surely be put on the first signal in rear of the crossing?

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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 09:30 #9748
postal
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Ben

Probably getting at cross purposes with the words - I meant the last controlled signal before the train reached the LC.

JG

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 11:49 #9751
Hpotter
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205 posts
USE OF EMERGENCY REPLACEMENT SWITCHES:
With the exception of the emergency replacemnet switches listed below, you MUST NOT rely on any emergency replacment switches controlled form this box to give signal protection, or to keep a signal at danger, for any of the following reasons:
* Protection of the line (Modules T2 and T3)
* Work on signalling equipment (Module T1A)
* Temporary Block Working (Module T1B Section 20)

(List of signals for the box in question)

You must specially observe the indication of the above named signals on each occasion that the emergency replacement switch is operated before a train is allowed to approach.

An automatic signal placed to Danger using a signal post replacement facility may be relied upon.

NOTE:- Not withstanding the above instrution, if an emergency arises, any automatic signal with a replacement facility in this box may be used initially in an attempt to stop trains.

Also, just noticed, that in the SBSI, ther is a provision for protection to be used in conjunction with several level crossings:
If it is necessary to provide immediate signal protection in an emergency, the emergency replacement facility on signals X,Y,Z my be used.

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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 14:35 #9752
mfcooper
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Howard - where did you get that text? My box instructions only has that first paragraph (the one I quoted).
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E button on Auto's 21/06/2010 at 17:20 #9755
NorthSig
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ERS can be used to protect a crossing, yes. You don't need to go back as far as the next applicable controlled signal, unless box instructions dictate otherwise.
ERS isn't used for regulation purposes, whether in ARS areas or not. I think caedave should be using reminders or turning ARS off at the junction to get things sorted as has already been suggested.
Matt - it seems that most TCB box instructions contain a section on ERS (if fitted) and the content is similar, so Potter is probably quoting part of one he has, which may not be the one for Stratford NLL. It was similar in the boxes I work anyway.

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E button on Auto's 25/06/2010 at 21:51 #9819
caedave
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142 posts
Thank you all for this information.

REMINDERS now being used, and can be better in that it allows a close following train to be closer to the crossing before it needs to check
so the actual throughput is quicker.

Dave M.

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E button on Auto's 29/06/2010 at 13:48 #9838
Firefly
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521 posts
You can also peg points to prevent ARS setting a route. (less button clicks )
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E button on Auto's 18/03/2011 at 17:18 #14087
MrBitsy
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I work at West Hampstead PSB and we have two types of ERS on the panel. Those labelled 'E' are not to be relied upon. However, we have several labelled 'R' which can be relied upon.
TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford
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E button on Auto's 19/03/2011 at 12:31 #14092
Simdmuk
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Hi Guys
From your replies above, it seems that (except for emergencies) you cannot rely on ERS except in certain cases. I'm a little confused about possession work. One reply says this is an exception but others say not.
A couple of examples spring to mind and I wonder if these are some of the permitted cases:

I have often travelled from St Pancras to Nottingahm on Saturday evenings and passed possession works which you can see many automatic signals are at red way before the actual possession site.This seems to suggest that they have had ERS attivated or alternativley manually attivated at the actual signal posts (it would be a long slog for someone to have to do this surely ?).

The other is when walking along the sea wall at Dawlish/Teignmouth on either Christmas Day or Boxing day (that is to say no trains are running), all the controlled signals are at danger and the automatic ones too. So i assume the ERS's are used for this.

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E button on Auto's 19/03/2011 at 21:31 #14099
TomOF
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In recent years many ERS buttons on panels have been augmented to provide assurance that using the 'E' button will place a signal to danger. On panels now you may see a label stating that the button can be relied upon.
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E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 18:55 #15348
GB
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In Sim Sig at least, you can still inadvertently clear a signal that has been placed to danger using the ERS even with a reminder applied, so I'd be wary of using such signals for protection. Within possessions, there is no requirement to have every available ERS fitted signal placed to red.
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E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 19:16 #15349
GeoffM
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GB said:
In Sim Sig at least, you can still inadvertently clear a signal that has been placed to danger using the ERS even with a reminder applied, so I'd be wary of using such signals for protection.
Are you sure you had the reminder on the ERS button rather than the signal itself? Putting it on the signal would not, of course, affect the ERS operation, and only affect routing to that signal.

SimSig Boss
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E button on Auto's 25/04/2011 at 21:44 #15352
mfcooper
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So Geoff's comment above becomes:

"Did you know you can place a reminder on an ERS button? This is what you should be doing in that circumstance."

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E button on Auto's 26/04/2011 at 18:19 #15377
GB
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Well well well, you learn something new everyday. After all these years playing SimSig I didn't know you could collar the ERS button!

Cheers chaps

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E button on Auto's 01/05/2011 at 22:52 #15441
UKTrainMan
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GB said:
Well well well, you learn something new everyday. After all these years playing SimSig I didn't know you could collar the ERS button!
Heh, there are many things in SimSig that others don't know you can collar. Examples are;

ARS Control buttons (those buttons used to turn ARS on or off for a certain area).
The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc).
'Indication' lights at automatic crossings.
Points (once keyed - the blue marking).
Auto buttons (although to be honest this should be sort of obvious if ERS buttons can be collared).

and I'm sure there are some others I've missed.

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
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E button on Auto's 06/05/2011 at 18:49 #15608
Josie
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310 posts
UKTrainMan said:
The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc).
'Indication' lights at automatic crossings.

What do these achieve?

UKTrainMan said:
Auto buttons (although to be honest this should be sort of obvious if ERS buttons can be collared).

A good practical example being on KX, on the Up Fast north of Hitchin.

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E button on Auto's 06/05/2011 at 20:30 #15612
Jan
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Josie said:
UKTrainMan said:
The 'crossing identification' text at crossings (the letters that tell you which type of crossing it is, i.e: MWL, UWC, ABCL, etc).
'Indication' lights at automatic crossings.
What do these achieve?

It's useful as a reminder in case you've got a slow vehicle crossing, etc. But of course it doesn't lock anything directly, so you should collar the protecting signals, too.

Another item to add to the list are the crossing controls for CCTV/MCB crossings, these can be collared, too.

Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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