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Re: Shortcut keys 15/11/2011 at 23:40 #23020 | |
maxand
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I previously said Quote: One of the most annoying features of a messagebox can be that many programmers rely on the user to close it, instead of making it disappear spontaneously after a set time.Clive replied Quote: On the contrary, stuff that disappears before you've had time to read it is really annoying.Obviously, that's the other extreme. The answer is a user-selectable timeout delay for all such messages, not difficult to create and set plenty long enough by default. Alternatively, if the programmer hasn't incorporated this, repeat the action that caused it to appear and after two or three attempts you will have read it. Such boxes should also have a "Do not show this again" checkbox, but that's not the solution to this particular problem, because you DO want the message to appear, only you DON'T want to have to cancel the popup yourself. I also said They can see signal numbers instantly. We have to fiddle windows until we find the manual page or signal PDF file. Noisynoel replied Quote: Try right clicking on the signal with your mouse.That only confirms that the signal I right-clicked is the one with the number I'm looking for. For example, when the train timetable says its next stop is at a particular signal, I've wasted a lot of time right-clicking all the nearest signals to find the right one, then given it up and gone back to the map (not always matching the current version of the sim, either). Shouldn't have to do that. Surely there must be a way to fit signal numbers into the display. If it makes the display too cluttered (PC Rail's sim is a good example of this), it could be toggled on/off using a function key. (Similarly, block lengths.) I appreciate that adding signal numbers to all existing sims will be no small programming task. An alternative method for locating an unfamiliar signal, or a train blocked by one would be to have a Jump to Train or Jump to Signal command. Train Dispatcher uses this very effectively. Yeah I know - it probably isn't prototypical in the UK, but what the heck - it should be there for newbies and optionally disabled if you already know all the important signal numbers. In SimSig, Jump to Train could be part of the Train List context menu, and Jump to Signal a main panel context menu option. In case you haven't guessed what it does, selecting a particular train or signal and clicking the option redraws the main panel display so that the train or signal is at the centre of your map view. jc92 said Quote: ive started working an a quick 1 hour timetable for royston which features a run round, a through train, a stopping train and a splitting train which forms two new services.Thank you very much for being willing to find the time to do that. I'd be more than happy to test it off-forum and help make it newbie-friendly. I would like it to include an example of all the Train Activities and would be happy to add walkthrough images to save you time. Lardybiker wrote Quote: Assuming you hadn't already thought of this....Can you add certain set up items as well? Just the little things we all take or granted such as unchecking the right click cancels route box and showing shunt signals etc etcA very good point as it took me a while to find my own best configuration. What's not made clear IMO are the pros and cons of each setting in Options. User configuration should have its own page in the Wiki - maybe I'll start one. Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 23:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 16/11/2011 at 17:43 #23063 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:As a few of my teachers liked to say- If you look it up for yourself, you will learn it much more quickly than if it's all displayed for you. After a few times of looking up (for example) K246, it's location will soon stick in your head. I know that when a new sim is started it can be a bit of a challenge working out where everything else is, but realistically an unknown location won't be to far away from the previous location in the TT (locations that include signal numbers in particular), and I personally like the feeling I get when I work out the solution to a problem that's been annoying me. And also, as you point out, it would be another pile of work for the developers. " said: only you DON'T want to have to cancel the popup yourself.Let's keep this in proportion- all you have to do is press the enter key or click OK, it's not a huge effort. I presume you are talking about popups like "Automatic working not available for this route", or "no route set from signal", again see my point about learning above. If cancelling messages is a problem, try running the sim at a slower speed and see how you get on. " said: Jump to Train or Jump to Signal commandThis is available in paged sims, go to menu>Train Describer>Find and type the description in. The sim will then jump to the page the train is on. Note this will only work if the train has the correct description attached. Also, in the F2 list, the look up what's in the trains 'current/previous location' entry- this should narrow it down. " said: What's not made clear IMO are the pros and cons of each setting in Options.This would be difficult to write- diffrent people prefer diffrent configurations. All the options are fairly clearly explained, it's up to the user to find their own preffered way of working. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 16/11/2011 at 18:13 #23068 | |
jc92
![]() 3650 posts |
certain popups can be controlled via the messages tab in the F3 (settings) menu. the option for a popup to appear can be checked or unchecked according to preference. so if like me you dont like popups, i have cancelled them and i only get a message in the chatbox, eg. "route locked by other route" and "auto working not available for this route" "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 16/11/2011 at 18:54 #23072 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
Re: Signal Locations in Timetables SimSig's aim is to simulate real-life working methods as closely as possible. One of the things signallers have to do is learn their area of control. This includes everything from what routes are available, what services actually run, right through to commonly used signals (particularly at junctions and stations). So the current practise of not displaying signal numbers in the simulation encourages the user to learn the area. In addition, as timetables show the locations a train will visit in order, it can be relatively easy to narrow-down the rough position of a signal based on its preceding and following locations. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 12:31 #23135 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
mfcooper wrote Quote: So the current practise of not displaying signal numbers in the simulation encourages the user to learn the area.I take this to mean that although in real life, signal numbers may or may not be displayed, depending on who wrote the software for the particular panel, SimSig has deliberately omitted signal numbers as an inducement for users to learn their areas? How very interesting. Quote: In addition, as timetables show the locations a train will visit in order, it can be relatively easy to narrow-down the rough position of a signal based on its preceding and following locations.I agree with you, it helps me locate a train faster than looking up a signal number, and usually no need to pause the sim. Steamer wrote Quote: Jump to Train or Jump to Signal commandThanks for the tip, didn't know that. It would save heaps of time to be able to do the same in scrolling sims. Instead of typing in the TD, the user should be able to select the train from the Train List, R-click it and select Go to Train. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 12:45 #23138 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:mfcooper wrote Signalmen invariably learn their area to a very high degree of detail. To the point that, in a manual box, you don't need to look for the lever numbers as you set routes - in fact, after a while, you don't even need to look at the frame, you just know by where you are in the 'box that you're in front of the right lever to pull or return; that means your attention is available for the diagram, the repeaters on the shelf and the trains passing outside. I think working a panel is similar, except that you rarely see the trains. It can be treacherous, of course; where adjacent levers control successive signals there's a risk that you put the wrong one back and the approaching driver finds a red being dropped on him (Marylebone 20 and 21 were like that, and at Euston there were entrance buttons for routes from the four "Backing Out Roads" (at the middle top of the panel in Peter's picture) to the platforms which, combined with a very fast acting system (all electropneumatic point machines) made wrong routes very easy). Where you have that situation, you glance at the lever/button/switch just to make sure before you operate it. (I never did put back on an arriving train at Marylebone). Learning things like that is also part of learning the 'box. Last edited: 17/11/2011 at 12:46 by kbarber Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 13:13 #23140 | |
Ron_J
![]() 330 posts |
" said:mfcooper wroteOn an NX panel signal, points and track circuit numbers are physically etched into the facia so are always on display. In the IECC system which Simsig simulates, signal, points and track circuit numbers are optional on the overview screens (i.e. the signaller can hide or display these individually as he wishes) and permanently displayed on the detail views (which Simsig does not replicate but TRESIM does). I cannot speak for other VDU-based systems such as Westcad, having never encountered any. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 18:03 #23154 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
" said:mfcooper wroteNot in the slightest! Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that, nor do I have any input into changing it, if required. I was trying to show that it makes SimSig more than just a game, because you have to know the signal box area to be able to keep the service running. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 21:50 #23169 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts ![]() |
" said:" said:For ultimate realism, this would narrow it down the signal number. No system points a bright flashing arrow to the train concerned. Refer to answer above." said:Indeed. Some are options that reflect different standards over the years - for example, point positions were never shown on overviews prior to somewhere in the mid-2000s, but now they are. Point locking is never shown in the UK but it is abroad. The latter is a useful debugging tool and it made sense to make it available to runtime users. Ultimately it's up to you. That's why they're called options.What's not made clear IMO are the pros and cons of each setting in Options.This would be difficult to write- diffrent people prefer diffrent configurations. All the options are fairly clearly explained, it's up to the user to find their own preffered way of working. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 17/11/2011 at 22:06 #23170 | |
jc92
![]() 3650 posts |
" said:surely also the signaller can see a big red mark on his panel along with a train description in capitals. should be pretty easy to locate a specific one when he rings in with his description. except, granted, non track circuited entry locations, but these come under the box knowledge umbrella "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 00:34 #23176 | |
DriverCurran
![]() 685 posts |
" said:mfcooper wrote[quote]I take this to mean that although in real life, signal numbers may or may not be displayed, depending on who wrote the software for the particular panel, SimSig has deliberately omitted signal numbers as an inducement for users to learn their areas? How very interesting.[quote] And in the good old days of large and small mechancial boxes not only would the signalman have to know which lever was which, he would have to know the levers that released that one lever, the levers which locked that one lever, which levers that one lever released, which levers that one lever locked. Not to mention any electrical locking that applied to any lever in the box. All while working the box during a shift and having to stand back to the frame and give the district inspector all that information under the pressure of an examination. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 01:42 #23182 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks again for all this added info. I thought Ron_J's comment interesting: Quote: In the IECC system which Simsig simulates, signal, points and track circuit numbers are optional on the overview screens (i.e. the signaller can hide or display these individually as he wishes)Now that's more like it! I could certainly use such an optional display, particularly while learning a sim. Seems we should distinguish here between sim players and professional signalmen. If I was paid to work in one signalbox eight hours a day I reckon I'd know every signal, point and TC number by heart in a very short time, optional display or not. But I'm not. SimSig beginners, on the other hand, have a much higher workload than experienced players and are hit hardest by lack of immediate access to such data, having to juggle map panels and PDF signal map files. I'd assume they would also switch sims more often than signalmen are posted to different stations. That's when really integrated display software would help the most. This isn't a rant and it still amazes me that SimSig is donationware. Yes, it does bring a glow of pride to know that one has learnt a sim well enough to work it successfully without having to refer to signal number diagrams all the time. Last edited: 18/11/2011 at 01:43 by maxand Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 07:38 #23198 | |
GeoffM
![]() 6344 posts ![]() |
" said:Quote:Unfortunately that statement is wrong. Westcad, IECC, and MCS have never showed signal IDs, points IDs, or track IDs on overviews. THey're on the detail views where each can be shown or hidden per screen. SimSig doesn't have detail views - in fact, it's only recently that we've shown track and point identities. Maybe a step in the future would be to have detail views as well as overviews, though that would increase the developers' workloads somewhat.In the IECC system which Simsig simulates, signal, points and track circuit numbers are optional on the overview screens (i.e. the signaller can hide or display these individually as he wishes)Now that's more like it! I could certainly use such an optional display, particularly while learning a sim. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 07:54 #23200 | |
maxand
![]() 1637 posts |
Thanks Geoff. Detail views - that's great. If I understand you correctly, a detail view is simply an overview where for example signal IDs are toggled on (enabled). Perfect. To have all views showing simultaneously on one screen would overdo it. That would get around wasting time guessing which signal has a particular number and then r-clicking it to confirm it. Roll on, detail views. ![]() Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 09:28 #23203 | |
Noisynoel
![]() 989 posts |
" said:Thanks Geoff. Detail views - that's great. If I understand you correctly, a detail view is simply an overview where for example signal IDs are toggled on (enabled). Perfect. To have all views showing simultaneously on one screen would overdo it.Actually detail views are the opposite to an overview, using the Drain, a detailed view would show just Bank station or just Waterloo end for example, it effectivly zooms in on an area. Therefore it means that you will have more screens to look at. Noisynoel Last edited: 18/11/2011 at 10:16 by AndyG Reason: typos Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 10:25 #23210 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:I'd assume they would also switch sims more often than signalmen are posted to different stations. That's when really integrated display software would help the most. Apart from relief men that is. Admittedly a relief signalman is more likely to be senior than junior (or used to be, anyway) but in my day that was strictly a relative term - I went out on the relief about 6 months after signing my first box; circumstances meant I never learned more than a handful of boxes before I settled in another regular job but it could have been very different. These were in the days of (largely) manual boxes. As DriverCurran has said, learning one of those took a lot more work than a panel (or its VDU equivalent that SimSig recreates). I don't know quite how much you know about manual signalling, so perhaps the best bet is to direct you to http://www.signalbox.org/ which will give you probably the best overview there is. But John (a former relief signalman in the London area of the former London Midland Region) doesn't give a vast amount of detail about interlocking and how boxes were laid out. The one thing I can say with absolute confidence: every one was different! Moreover, there was no single set of principles for laying out a lever frame (although there certainly were principles - functions weren't just placed randomly). I suspect the principles changed both over time and according to the particular person who designed the interlocking. Then, as track layouts were remodelled, it was common to fit new functions in as and where they could sensibly be accommodated - unless the remodelling was very major, it was rare to re-interlock the frame, as that both took a lot of work and meant weeks of working under degraded conditions. (For a good example of how a frame could change, go to the the "Track Layouts" page and search for St Albans; it brings up five diagrams ranging from when the 'box was just four years old to the 1975 configuration that lasted until abolition in 1980. Incidentally, the box is now preserved; its website is at http://www.tlr.ltd.uk/sigbox/home.eb and if you're ever in the UK I'd be most happy to show you around the real thing.) Of course it wasn't only the frames that had to be learned. Each box had its own particular requirements relating to clearing points, special authorisations (Regulation 5, Regulation 31 and so on) etc and often there were additional sets of regulations to be worked (Absolute Block was most common, of course, but you could find the odd Track Circuit Block section, or perhaps Permissive Block). If you go back to my first post here http://www.SimSig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=13&id=2825&Itemid=132 and to my post about permissive block (#8) and Kensington Olympia (#20) here http://www.SimSig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=14&id=20057&Itemid=132 you'll see a couple of examples of the sort of thing that needed to be learned. And yes, there were reliefmen who covered both of those locations. Moreover, a senior relief signalman covering Finchley Road would also sign Cricklewood Junction (double manned, over 120 levers) and St Pancras (although it was Track Circuit Block it was an OCS panel, not easy to learn, with a complex layout and several rather nasty traps for the unwary). And the most senior men probably also signed the powerboxes on the Euston line - see Peter's photo I've already commented on (which, I realise, is only the London End of the panel - wonder what happened to Camden End). One single format for operation & display? These SimSig types don't know they're born! [/Monty Python sketch] ![]() Last edited: 18/11/2011 at 10:28 by kbarber Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 12:19 #23218 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
" said:I take this to mean that although in real life, signal numbers may or may not be displayed, depending on who wrote the software for the particular panel, SimSig has deliberately omitted signal numbers as an inducement for users to learn their areas? How very interesting.The main reason for omitting signal numbers is that they would clutter the screen too much. It would be practical though tedious to add them, perhaps with a button to hide them, if there was room. But in many simulations there just isn't that space. (Personally I don't like the idea of adding detail screens to SimSig, but that's just an opinion.) Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 12:37 #23220 | |
clive
![]() 2766 posts |
" said:Or worse. Look at the fatal collision at Hull Paragon, which happened because one of the signalman pulled the lever adjacent to the correct one when setting up a route in a hurry. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 12:54 #23223 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:" said:Or worse. Look at the fatal collision at Hull Paragon, which happened because one of the signalman pulled the lever adjacent to the correct one when setting up a route in a hurry. Indeed... I'd quite forgotten that one. It's a while since I read the Report. Do I recall correctly the wrong 'un was pulled in the instant between being released as another lever was normalised and the track locking taking effect? I suspect modern installations would generally try and prevent such occurrences. (Though, as Moreton-on-Lugg shows, things have slipped through.) Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 12:56 #23224 | |
AndyG
![]() 1842 posts |
" said:I've added sig nos, with a toggle on/off to a forthcoming sim, idea seems to work well on that particular sim at least. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 13:04 #23226 | |
postal
![]() 5217 posts ![]() |
For those interested, a scan of the original typescript report of the Hull Paragon accident produced by Major Pringle is available online. It is interesting to see the conventions and accuracies that were acceptable in those days, for example "the leading bogie wheels of the engine would be 219 feet 2 1/4 inches' beyond the signal bridge, and 37 feet 9 3/4 inches from the nearest, (east) end of the locking bar at 95 points". The bobby pulled the lever next to the lever he thought he was pulling and reversed 95 points while the loco covered that 37 feet 9 3/4 inches. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 18/11/2011 at 13:05 by postal Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 14:48 #23236 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:For those interested, a scan of the original typescript report of the Hull Paragon accident produced by Major Pringle is available online. Thanks John. Long time since I read it. I'm tempted to say there but for the grace of God... Looking at the timings Major Pringle calculated, it looks as if Clark had not much more than a second to get that wrong lever. That's very rough luck. Particularly as those guys probably made precisely those movements in precisely the same way every day of their lives. I notice Maj Pringle recommends a track circuit between the signals & the locking bar. It's very instructive to realise how little track-circuited even some very large stations were, until a very late date in some cases. Log in to reply |
Re: Shortcut keys 18/11/2011 at 21:22 #23249 | |
Ron_J
![]() 330 posts |
" said:" said:In that case I cheerfully withdraw my statement - but I was certain that I'd seen this demonstrated on overviews in York but it must have been detail screens. I'd no intention to mislead!Quote:Unfortunately that statement is wrong. Westcad, IECC, and MCS have never showed signal IDs, points IDs, or track IDs on overviews. They're on the detail views where each can be shown or hidden per screen.In the IECC system which Simsig simulates, signal, points and track circuit numbers are optional on the overview screens (i.e. the signaller can hide or display these individually as he wishes)Now that's more like it! I could certainly use such an optional display, particularly while learning a sim. Last edited: 19/11/2011 at 14:26 by Ron_J Log in to reply |