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| Hand-working failed points 02/11/2011 at 16:35 #22406 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
Currently in Simsig, if a set of points, or a TC covering points, fails, the entire game can be brought to a (rather boring!) halt if there's no way to route around it and not much to do in the way of turning back trains. Perhaps some sort of feature to allow points to be worked under failure conditions could be added? For power-operated points, they can be wound over by hand, whilst for lever-operated ones, there are emergency releases. Not entirely sure how you'd implement it though, as Simsig doesn't list point numbers, so phoning the poor guy out in the blizzard to ask him to reverse and clamp points 666 would be a bit difficult. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 02/11/2011 at 17:43 #22409 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
On new sims you can find the point numbers through the Incident Panel.
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| Re: Hand-working failed points 03/11/2011 at 12:57 #22433 | |
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alvinhochun
249 posts |
Well, in real situations, shouldn't that the signalman have no access to a "thing" like the "Incident Panel"? :silly: (But I have to admit that it is an easy way to get rid of "unwanted" incidents  )Which sim were you playing, and which point had failed? (Screenshot?) I am thinking that there may be a way to make the traffic go again (unless it really locked a long route or it is a single line) Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 03/11/2011 at 16:08 #22439 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Well, in real situations, shouldn't that the signalman have no access to a "thing" like the "Incident Panel"?Don't believe anyone was suggesting getting rid of failures. You need the incident control panel to be able to click on the points to see what number they are so that you can tell your route setting agent which set of points to operate. In real situations the signaller would just click on the detailed view of the area and they'd be able to see the points Identity. The ability to get points wound and the technicians to give a one off release of controls would be a great enhancement to the game. This has been asked for before but it doesn't hurt to bring it up again. FF Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sam Tugwell |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 03/11/2011 at 17:41 #22443 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
I agree with Firefly Here, it would be fantastic to see this implemented. Sam "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 03/11/2011 at 17:56 #22444 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
" said:[quote]When I was hosting yesterday I carried out a Release of Controls by clearing a failed track circuit and then dropping it again once the route had died out using the F11 incident panel. The ability to "Blow the route" is very useful, and in fact I think it should be published how to do it so that anyone playing can do so. I was a little lax however - I used SimSiggers licence to ignore the rule whereby I should technically have stopped all other train movements on that interlocking, and I failed to complete the RT3186 form! On a more serious note, perhaps I should write a Wiki article about the method. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ajax103 |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 06:09 #22458 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
I guess we will need a set of route cards added to each sim, to enable the signalman to set routes during failures?
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| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 11:47 #22463 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Theoretically I suppose so, would take ages to write for a big sim like KX or Trent though.
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| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 12:14 #22464 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Yes that was what I was implying! However if you want realism there is no way a signalman would be expected to set up a complex route in station limits without route cards. Maybe winding points is not such a good idea after all?
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| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 12:43 #22465 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Personally I have never set a route in SimSig over a failed set of points. The other day in multiplayer, as detailed above, I did blow a route out using the incident panel but we still only ran trains where detection was gained, talking by the signal over the failed track circuit. All we really did was allow points that were previously locked by a route to be driven over. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 13:10 #22466 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:Yes that was what I was implying! However if you want realism there is no way a signalman would be expected to set up a complex route in station limits without route cards. Maybe winding points is not such a good idea after all?Route setting is still available in the case of a points failure. Set the required route over the failed set of points, ask for the failed set of points to be wound to the correct position. Talk the train by the signal. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 14:32 #22468 | |
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alvinhochun
249 posts |
You can never confirm that a point which has failed in one direction can be placed to the correct position. In this situation, either setting a route over the failed position or attempting to lock a point cannot be safe at all. I also had an experience when playing Drain (!!!) A TC over a point has failed so I had to change the timtable to force single line running. When I tried to lock the blocked point in the other position, it just flashes like if the point has failed, but it's the TC preventing it to be moved. The point has absolutely not in the right place so allowing a train to pass signal in danger at the moment can probably cause a derailment in real life. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 14:54 #22469 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Hence:- Quote: ask for the failed set of points to be wound to the correct position. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 17:09 #22475 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:attempting to lock a point cannot be safe at all. Really? I've attempted to lock points in position in real life - and succeeded! All I had to do was go through the motions of winding, plugging and clipping and hey presto, they were locked in position! I can't see why this can't be translated to SimSig, exactly as Firefly describes. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 17:20 #22477 | |
postal
5265 posts |
It might just be me, but I am getting confused in this thread about what is real-life and what is sim operation. In the first posting in this thread, Danny252 asked whether it would be possible to allow for a failed point within a sim to be moved to another position. Given the desire of SimSig to give as realistic an operation as possible, then it is sensible to define what happens in the real world. From that point on, it is up to Geoff and the developers as to whether it is possible to create a representation of the real-life operation within a SimSig simulation. However, since Danny252's posting there has been a lot of discussion which I have not been able to follow as I have got lost between SimSig and real-life. We all know what we can and can't do within a current sim when a points failure is reported. Have I got it right that the points can be moved in the real world once a technician is on site and subject to a number of rules and requirements? If that is the case, then going back to the original posting could that be replicated in SimSig? If it can, then it would be a valuable enhancement; if it can't, then what happens in the real world is immaterial as far as simulations are concerned. The actual details of how it would all work can wait until we know if such an enhancement is possible. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 17:42 #22480 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:Have I got it right that the points can be moved in the real world once a technician is on site and subject to a number of rules and requirements?I can't say for sure if technicians are trained in point winding, but I think they are. In a simple failure, you need one person qualified in point winding to work under the instruction of the signalman to wind and clip the points. If it is a complex failure then a route-setting agent must also be appointed, and he works under the instruction of the signalman and the poor sod doing the winding works under him. Note: I am in no way qualified to do anything on the mainline. I'm attempting to merge my heritage knowledge with general knowledge and reading of the rule book. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 17:48 #22481 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
I can describe a real-life example from experience if that helps, but from a mechanical box (Loughborough on the GCR) - the principles still apply though, I'm sure. In this case (on a very busy weekend too), I had an issue with a signal reading over the complex pointwork at the south end of the station. I think the problem was that the lever was held in the B check position as if the approach locking hadn't released, so wouldn't return fully normal - it could have been that the signal wasn't detected on, I can't remember exactly, but the end result was that I couldn't operate any of the levers to work the points (as the route was being held through them). The only way to keep the job running was to appoint a points operator (not necessarily an S&T technician - in this case, it was an appropriately trained chap from the Traffic dept who was on the station at the time) to wind the points to my instructions. Once any set of points had been wound away from the position that the lever was in, it would lose detection (shown by the flashing indication on Simsig and in IECC reality), so required clipping and scotching to ensure that traffic could pass safely. Even if the mechanical locking would allow it, the protecting signal couldn't be cleared in that situation (as there was no detection), so I had to talk trains by. Eventually I was in a position to set the original route up past the 'problem' signal again for a subsequent Down train - and was able to clear the signal as the points were wound back to correspond with the lever positions, so I had detection throughout - and the fault rectified itself as the train passed through the route. So yes, the points can be wound manually - to the Signalman's instructions - in reality, and no (in response to alvinhochun), you can't prove through the equipment that the points are then set correctly for the move (at least in our case - I assume that's it's the case on an IECC or similar if there's a route set through them in the 'other' direction!). That's why the chap on the ground clips them up for you, and assures you that it's been done properly - and in turn that's why it's so important to make sure that you both come to a clear understanding, as you no longer have the safety of the interlocking. Whether that can sensibly be implemented in reality - as Postal suggests, I'll leave that open for discussion! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Josie |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 18:19 #22482 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
A good post Late Turn. Although I am passed in point winding, I've never had to do it in anger yet - apart from during training, where we did it "for real". The most important thing to remember is work under the instructions of the signalman, and remember that crossovers have two ends!
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| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 20:04 #22485 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Talking from the preservation side of things. I know we can manually wind the clamp lock points we have, as well as the motorized point(s) we have. Though I haven't yet been trained on how to do it.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 20:20 #22487 | |
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button_pusher
56 posts |
In the event of a failure: If a track circuit has failed causing a route to be stuck then the S&T can give release of that track circuit ONCE and ONLY if the signaller requests it. This then allows the route to "die out" and the failed track circuit is restored to the failed state. If a track circuit circuit has failed of it's own accord over a set of points then those points are held in that position. If the signaller requires those points in another position then the MOM will wind them over and clip and scotch the points. We still like to clip and scotch them even if they gain correct detection for the opposite lie. What would happen on the sim is that the points are operated to the desired position then locked using the blue indication. The route cards typically get used when there is a failure of either a single button or failure with the push button interlocking. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 20:58 #22488 | |
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TomOF
452 posts |
I don't work directly on the railways myself but I was under the impression the route cards always had to be used when a route could not be set in the normal way. Not using the routesetting cards was listed as a causal factor in the recent-ish derailment at East Somerset Jn. Not being that familiar with the rulebook is there an exemption as to when they need not be used? Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 21:24 #22489 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Postal Take the example below:-  IN SIMSIG You are stuffed. You can't move 1Z01 due to the points failure and the line is completely blocked in both directions. IN REALITY The Signaller would get a point operator to site. The Signaller would request that the points be Wound to the Right Hand Switch Closed position, then clipped and scotched in that position. Once assured that the points are in the correct position and the barriers lowered the signaller would authorise 1Z01 to pass signal P982 at danger. You see how the route can be set to prove the rest of the points are in the correct position. Once 1Z01 has passed, the route from P982 can be cancelled and the route set for 1Z02.  The signal obviously won't clear because the points are still out of correspondence. The signaller would now ask the point operator to wind the points to left hand switch closed. Once LHSC the points will be clipped and Scotched in that position and the train will be talked past signal P981. The process will continue until the technicians repair the points. Hope this helps. FF Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 21:48 #22491 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Yikes, this grew quickly since I last looked! I've certainly learnt a bit here, as my knowledge of the actual process was a bit rusty before all this (my previous experience with points not working being to use the conveniently located piece of wood behind the token machine to wedge them over until the detection decided to play along). I can see it might require a bit of work in the code to be able to contact your point-windey-man (either adding/removing potential diallings from the phone, or something totally separate), but it would certainly be more interesting than an "all stop" moment - or, as it usually turns out to be, a tea break. Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 04/11/2011 at 22:28 #22495 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:Well, in real situations, shouldn't that the signalman have no access to a "thing" like the "Incident Panel"?The ICP is there mainly for multiplayer games where the host gets to be the "dungeon master" - in other words, he or she can control all the events that happen in the game, and also act as anybody outside of the signaller's office. Going back to the OP, yes it can be done, and quite simply. So you may get your hopes up that it will appear at some point in the future! 
SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Hand-working failed points 05/11/2011 at 13:44 #22509 | |
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alvinhochun
249 posts |
By grouping all your replies, I understand the usage of the Incident Panel. The host can BTW the Incident Panel can only re-enable the point detection, but not getting the real position of a point, isn't it? Log in to reply |