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| Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 14:05 #22895 | |
alvinhochun
249 posts |
NOTE: This thread is unofficial! I am writing a library in .NET 2.0 (C#) Perhaps when the developers get to think that using Delphi is getting too old, this can be a reference. I am having these: SimSig.Controls.SimpleViewBox - A simple control which can show single-colored SimSig characters SimSig.Controls.SimpleEditBox - A simple control which can show single-colored SimSig characters, with internal single-character selection. SimSig.Controls.SimSigControlBase - A base class for making SimSig controls. It has overwritten the backcolor and forecolor, and something else. (I seemed to forgot the "abstract" keyword!) SimSig.TestPrograms.TestProgram.SimSigCharList - A simple control that lists all available characters for SimSig and has the ability to select. It can be used as input (as in the sample program) The test program is also useful for someone. The main screen:  Export dialog  Export in raw text (which can be pasted in Word or whatever and custom-coloured )  The exported image  You can also use the arrow keys to move the cursor... Download link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39080136/SimSig/SimSig_CSharp.zip To run the test program, navigate to ".\SimSig.TestPrograms.TestProgram\bin\Debug\" and run "SimSig.TestPrograms.TestProgram.exe" Feedback is welcomed! The code could be placed in the public domain, unless the SimSig developers don't want. I will respect your thoughts. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 14:43 by alvinhochun Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 16:29 #22902 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts 
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What we have seems to work fine for me. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 16:31 #22904 | |
andyb0607
260 posts |
There is a saying that can be applied here and that is "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Sam Tugwell, ipswich |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 22:36 #22920 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Alvin, I'm with you on this one. It's a great idea. No language works forever and .NET uses Windows' own inbuilt resources, making for less code and easier programming for anyone. If the "final image" in your first post is the same size as what we would see on our screens, then your reduction in layout size would be a big help to the average player, as displays which now require purchasing two or three monitors to view comfortably (avoiding scrolling or paging) could be accommodated on on one large monitor, or two at the most. Let those who have adjusted their hardware to fit the software continue playing SimSig their own way. It should be the other way round - software should be optimized for hardware. Compared with real-life displays or real-life training sims, the developers of SimSig acknowledge that compromises have had to be made, hence we have paging, "scrollies" and Overview windows which impose an additional workload on the player, detracting from the enjoyment of the game. The choice here is, as usual, between the degree of authenticity and playability. If SimSig uses the same "fonts" for the free version display as for its commercial big brother version, which I suspect it does (also convenient), then the display IS the same size as the real thing, fine when you've got at least three monitors at home, but not much fun when you haven't. In a large simulation it feels a bit like shining a spotlight around a large warehouse at night. Even if page views were unchanged, this would result in smaller SimSig windows, affording a new solution as to where to put those pesky windows such as Train List (F2) and Show Timetable (F4) that would otherwise plaster themselves over the main display at inopportune moments! They would always fit nicely somewhere outside the main display. Alvin's display appears just as authentic as the current version, and if this further compromise with reality adds to ease of playing the sim he should be encouraged as much as possible. Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 22:45 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 22:44 #22921 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
I think you've missed the point Maxand. If Alvin is using the same font as Simsig (which he is) then it's going to bed exactly the same size as what we have now.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ipswich |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 22:45 #22922 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
i would say the scrolling better simulates moving your eyes around a panel. im slightly confused maxand are u suggesting SimSig should alter its display so the whole of saltley,trent or kings cross will fit onto the screen of a laptop monitor?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 22:56 #22924 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Headshot, you could be right there. Comparing sizes, it's a bit like looking at the moon. Hard to judge. Oh well, I've made my point anyway and it's a step in the right direction. IMO, a reduction in font size from 30-50% would not impede playability for the average home simmer and more could be fitted on one screen. Of course, this would require redrawing the display, but I would be prepared to do it for the sims I enjoy playing. (added) jc92, if it comes to that I would argue that most laptops now allow USB monitors to be connected. Unless one uses a docking station, the distance of the screen from one's eyes is fixed by the distance of the keyboard, which has to be within comfortable reach. I'm certainly not expecting Geoff Mayo to give up his valuable time to create a new font and reprogram the existing sims' displays (I'd rather see him add signal numbers to existing sims). Thus, although I don't find it as comfortable to use a laptop + external monitor as I would with a separate keyboard and 2+ monitors a little further away, the laptop's external monitor would be a better place to put other windows such as Train List and Show Timetable.( I have not tried this but read somewhere on the forum that SimSig does not provide for a separate display for these ancillary windows.) It's a moot point as to whether scrolling in SimSig "simulates moving your eyes around a panel", or indeed is easier on said eyes. When you scroll with the mouse you translate an up-down movement into a left-right action, which I find disconcerting and still manage to scroll the wrong way on occasions. Scrolling with the keyboard is easier, though just as jerky except that the cursor keys (arrows) are usually inconveniently located on the right-hand side of the keyboard and as most people are right handed, it means they must either take their hands off the mouse to scroll the sim, or cross their left hand over, which I do. Or one can buy and fit a USB number pad with arrow keys, except mine (made by Belkin) doesn't play well with my laptop and there is always a degree of latency (delay). Seems one cannot simply DRAG the sim left or right. I have lots of fun on the smaller sims though I can barely keep up with the workload at times as I need to keep scrolling back and forth all the time. If I were prepared to let SimSig take over my life then I would probably invest in a standalone PC complete with three monitors, distanced from the keyboard so that they are all within one's field of view as you state. The only good thing that can be said about having three monitors is that they create more of a "panorama" effect than can be achieved by rewriting the display so that more track can be fitted onto the same screen. More monitors consume more power and emit more radiation. Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 23:25 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 22:59 #22925 | |
agilchrist
258 posts |
Given that the cost of a 27inch monitor running 2560x1600 has got to be less than £200, with screen sizes and resolutions increasing shortly we will automatically have the whole of the sim onto a single monitor. Many of the action games you play now also support and advise on multiple monitors, so why buck the trend and start making things so small you can barely see. I for one think the current screen size is just fine, I play on my laptop when I am travelling and on my 4 screens when I am at home and I get the same enjoyment. I think Alvin's post about moving to .net does warrant more than the usual shunned postings he received however, we dont tell Microsoft to write their code in another language, nor any other software company so I would not ever expect Simsig to move especially when years of work have gone into creating a fairly secure and stable product. I could certainly contribute if it was .net but I am not prepared to learn Delphi (I think I am correct) as it will end up screwing my head up with my own work, but I am happy to take the results of all the current hard work others undertake and play the game as it is, and all I can say is keep them coming. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:08 #22926 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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See attached screen shot at Yoker IECC- this is all the signaller has -same as the paged sims- no banks of monitors or complete display. I believe Yoker was one of the first IECC boxes (It's on the can't do list before anyone asks). And that's what SimSig is designed to replicate in its raw form, it's just that we developers have pushed the boundaries a bit with AB and other such things. In a purist form SimSig should be the an IECC version of whatever panel being built rather than an replication of say an NX panel.  Not really sure what needs changed. Note I say this with my "I don't really understand computers" hat on rather than a dismissal of the idea. If it does not change what I do to make a Sim then largely I don't care how the gubbens behind the it works. Peter Post has attachments. Log in to view them. I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 23:13 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Forest Pines |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:11 #22927 | |
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agilchrist
258 posts |
Peter I thought it was the case that Geoff can't be anywhere near it if its already done Is this still correct or has policy changed since Geoff's posting. Thanks. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:14 #22928 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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That why I said it's on the can't do list in the opening paragraph- before someone asked! The photo was for illustrative purposes only. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 23:15 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:20 #22929 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
I don't think that really answered Alan's question Peter. I think he meant can't it be done if Geoff doesn't touch it.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:29 #22930 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Just added some comments to my post #4 while you guys were writing yours.
Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 23:49 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:34 #22931 | |
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agilchrist
258 posts |
The problem with editing original posts is that comments posted by others based on the original post look to be out of context afterwards.
Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:49 #22933 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Peter, thanks for the pic of Yoker. At the top of the monitor there is a sign "DIS 2", presumably Display 2, so I wonder how many monitors there are in front of the operator. The size of the font indicates to me that the monitor would be further away from the operator than it would be on a home desk. To sim this, one could reduce the font size by 50% and not lose any detail. Agilchrist said: Quote: Given that the cost of a 27inch monitor running 2560x1600 has got to be less than £200, with screen sizes and resolutions increasing shortly we will automatically have the whole of the sim onto a single monitor.Is this true? So far in my experience the width of SimSig's main panel seems fixed (page view or scrolly), requiring switching between pages or scrolling no matter how big one's screen is. Also there doesn't seem any way to size the font with the window, which is a pity. Can anyone elaborate on this? I would certainly consider buying a much larger monitor IF I could fit a wide layout onto one screen. Last edited: 14/11/2011 at 23:52 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:55 #22934 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
A font is a fixed amount of pixels per character, the more pixels on the monitor the more you see.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 14/11/2011 at 23:59 #22935 | |
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agilchrist
258 posts |
I rarely play the paged Sims, so my comment on the scroll, and whilst some panels are huge I do manage to fit the core/main panels on a single monitor. I like the multi monitors as I can see everything, I do have a quad card which was 130 as well I shall post some pics of the 2560 wide screen if you want but not tonight.let me know which simyou want me to open You can also open multiple views as well and fit more onto one screen. Blessed are the true believers, for only they shall walk the Path, and they shall be welcomed unto the realm of the Ori and made as one with Them. Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 00:00 by agilchrist Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 00:13 #22938 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for your offer. Right now I am learning to play Southampton (a scrolly) which while not all that big would need four screens side by side on my 1600 x 900 display (I estimated this by comparing how much in the Overview panel I can see on my screen). It would be most interesting to see how much of this can be fitted on your 2560 screen. I would like to keep my Train List (F2) and Show timetable window for single train open too. As a bonus it would be nice to see a bit of Timetable List, plus the signals pdf map as SimSig doesn't display signal numbers. Can you do this? Last edited: 15/11/2011 at 00:18 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 00:35 #22942 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
I can all of Southampton and have a lot of room to spare across 3 screens with a total resolution of 5760.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 01:08 #22944 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I was hoping that perhaps multiple views might have enabled you to fit all of Southampton onto one screen. 
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| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 06:28 #22954 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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" said:I don't think that really answered Alan's question Peter. I think he meant can't it be done if Geoff doesn't touch it.There has been no change in the policy that I'm aware of. " said: Peter, thanks for the pic of Yoker. At the top of the monitor there is a sign "DIS 2", presumably Display 2, so I wonder how many monitors there are in front of the operator. The size of the font indicates to me that the monitor would be further away from the operator than it would be on a home desk. To sim this, one could reduce the font size by 50% and not lose any detail. One as I said. There is a second workstation doing the other end of the line so it's a bit like two SimSig paged sims chained. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 10:08 #22963 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:I was hoping that perhaps multiple views might have enabled you to fit all of Southampton onto one screen. :ohmy:I don't know if you realised this but you can have more than one signalling view open at a time. You could stack two views, one above the other, for example. It's even mentioned in the Wiki. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 12:54 #22968 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Oh boy, where do I start? Firstly, I think it's very unlikely that SimSig is going to move to another development language. Why should we bother? There would be a huge amount of code to port for no obvious benefit. Max: you're probably unaware of this, but SimSig development runs on two levels. Firstly, there's the core code, which is written in Delphi. Geoff and I are the only people who touch this. This then defines a language in which individual simulations are written. The various developers write in this language and a compiler links it with the core code to produce the final simulation. Changing from Delphi to something else won't help those developers. (There's a small amount of custom code in Delphi in each simulation, but we aim to minimize that.) It would be possible in principle to have a smaller font (at least for scrolly sims), thus resulting in more visible in a given screen space. I don't know how much change the core code would need, nor how readable such a smaller font would be. Just as a data point, I do all my developing and playing on a single laptop screen, and I don't usually find the size a limitation or problem. I certainly don't have three monitors at home (not all on the same computer, anyway). I've tried using a 2 screen display at work, and you can move windows on both screens or even have a big window stretching across both. So if you want it you can have it, but as I said I don't find it necessary. The ability to drag the screen sounds like an interesting idea; Geoff does the UI stuff, so I don't know how hard it is in Delphi. But I've added it to the wish list - if it ever gets done, it will be in the core code and will therefore automatically work in all future scrolly sims. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Forest Pines |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 12:59 #22969 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Quote:I thought it was the case that Geoff can't be anywhere near it if its already doneLet me attempt to summarize the situation. Firstly, developers don't do any simulation without Geoff's outline agreement. Secondly, to produce a realistic simulation you need access to a lot of data. Much of this is only available from Network Rail or by doing a lot of personal research (watching out of train windows, walking along just outside the boundary fence, using high-powered binoculars, etc.). In general bits of Network Rail have been very good at providing this data when asked. Thirdly, Geoff's day job involves writing signalling simulations. Therefore he needs to be very careful that SimSig doesn't adversely affect him. The rule of thumb is, therefore, that if a simulation covers an area that Geoff's employer works on, we don't do it. This isn't hard and fast, but any developer would have to establish a very strong audit trail to prove that Geoff hadn't leaked any information to him. So far I don't think anyone's bothered - there are more areas that can be done than there are developers looking for projects. Log in to reply |
| Re: Getting SimSig to .NET (SimSig "maker" included) 15/11/2011 at 13:03 #22970 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Quote:the width of SimSig's main panel seems fixedOn paged simulations the size is fixed, because you switch to other areas by changing page. On scrolly simulations you can have any number of view windows open at a time, and any view window can be made as large or as small as you like (though no wider or higher than the total simulation, of course). Log in to reply |