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| LUL Victoria line trains 26/01/2011 at 19:34 #2296 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
In December I fired off an email to LUL regarding the Victoria Line and a particularly frustrating experience with the new trains; today I received the following response which I found quite interesting and thought I'd share with you as it goes into some technical detail of the new trains etc. Question 1 I am becoming increasingly irritated by the new trains you have on the Victoria line - while aesthetically they are great they do seem more trouble than they are worth and there seems little wrong with the old ones. LUL Response The new fleet of trains bring a range of benefits to customers both in terms of capacity and performance, as well as aesthetically. The new ’09 stock fleet of trains on the Victoria line bring substantial journey time savings for customers with faster acceleration which allows a 10% reduction in customers’ journey time. In addition, the new trains are fitted with a new signalling and automatic train control system which allows trains to run more frequently, more smoothly and provide additional capacity. The existing trains are more than 40 years old and are reaching the end of their economic life. Question 2 Of particular note is the faffing around we seem to have at every station with the doors - I assume they are somewhat more sensitive than the old ones. I estimated this morning that we wasted the best part of 5 minutes between Finsbury Park and Green Park with the doors swishing to and fro and the driver (quite rightly) getting a tad annoyed - as I was. I'm also finding that my average arrival time at work is getting slightly later. LUL Response Our records for the 17th December 2010 (the date of your request) show a total of 8 service affecting delays of 2 minutes or more (delays of less than 2 minutes’ duration are not recorded). Two of these delays were associated with the door system on the new trains: Euston southbound at 08:04 (3 minutes) and Vauxhall northbound at 08:59 (2 minutes). The morning peak service was also adversely affected by a failure of the legacy signalling system at 08:07. The legacy system will be progressively de-commissioned during 2011 and early 2012 once all the old trains have been withdrawn from service. Question 3 Are the doors on these trains more sensitive than the old ones? LUL Response The door system on the new trains has a new ‘obstacle detection’ system that partially re-opens a door that encounters an obstruction during closure, then re-closes it slowly. This is new to London Underground but many modern train door systems incorporate this feature. The doors also have a ‘sensitive edge’ system with special door edge rubbers. This supplements the new train’s in-cab CCTV display of the platform/train interface in order to provide additional protection against the risk of dragging a passenger trapped in the doors (by their coat, for example) along the platform. If the new system detects a trapped object after the doors have closed and before the last car of the train has left the platform, the emergency brake is applied as a precaution. This new system replaces more traditional methods of detecting trapped objects with the aim of improving reliability; we have experienced reliability problems with the doors on previous new trains on other lines. Question 4 What is the relative sensitivity between the old and new stock - i.e. how much of a door gap is enough to cause this problem? LUL Response For the old stock, when the door is closing, the door is indicated as open for a gap of 12.5mm and indicated as closed for a gap of 11mm. Trapped objects are not detected for gaps smaller than 11mm. For the new trains, when the door is closing, the door is indicated as open for a gap of 8mm and closed for a gap of 6mm. However, the sensitive edge system detects objects smaller than 6mm, particularly if they are pulled tight, after the doors have been closed and positively locked. Question 5 Assuming I am on the right lines- how many incidents in say that last year have there been on the Victoria Line old stock related to the doors having something stuck in them that was not detected on closing? LUL Response The most immediate means for a passenger to alert the Train Operator to an item caught in the train doors is use of the Passenger Emergency Alarm. From our records for the period from 1st January to 16th December 2010, there were 12 activations of the Passenger Emergency Alarm on the old trains relating to objects trapped in the doors that were not detected on closing. Question 6 Are there any plans to de-sensitise the doors a wee bit? LUL Response We are working with our suppliers to investigate the possibility of modifying the door sensitive edge system in a way that would discriminate between objects trapped and being pulled from outside the train and objects trapped and being pulled from inside. This would give the possibility of applying the emergency brake only in the case of pulling from outside the train when there is a risk that a passenger could be dragged. Part of the change would be to modify the profile of the door edge rubber if practicable to make it easier for passengers to pull trapped objects free. We are also investigating whether there would be benefit in providing a ‘limited pushback’ facility that would enable a customer with an object trapped in the doors to push the door open slightly to enable the trapped object to be withdrawn. It is too early to say what the outcome of this investigation will be. Meanwhile we are re-briefing our Train Operators on the best way to respond to activations of the detection system in order to minimise delays to the service. Question 7 What data do you have on the relative time it takes the old and the new stock to get from one end of the line to the other or even between stations as it does seem the normal dwell times are longer with the new trains leaving aside the door issue. LUL Response Night time testing of the new system has been carried out to assess the fastest ‘end to end’ journey times attainable by the new trains, but during the traffic day both the old and the new trains work interchangeably to the same timetable. The new trains are designed to achieve faster inter-station run times, and the track and power supply have been upgraded to support this. Typically, the new trains can achieve ‘start to stop’ run times from one station to the next around 12% better than the old trains. With the current timetable this can result in longer dwells at stations to enable on-time departure and minimise the risk of trains being stopped in tunnels. Following withdrawal of the last of the old stock it is planned to implement a new timetable that takes advantage of the increased performance of the new trains. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| LUL Victoria line trains 26/01/2011 at 19:34 #13343 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
In December I fired off an email to LUL regarding the Victoria Line and a particularly frustrating experience with the new trains; today I received the following response which I found quite interesting and thought I'd share with you as it goes into some technical detail of the new trains etc. Question 1 I am becoming increasingly irritated by the new trains you have on the Victoria line - while aesthetically they are great they do seem more trouble than they are worth and there seems little wrong with the old ones. LUL Response The new fleet of trains bring a range of benefits to customers both in terms of capacity and performance, as well as aesthetically. The new ’09 stock fleet of trains on the Victoria line bring substantial journey time savings for customers with faster acceleration which allows a 10% reduction in customers’ journey time. In addition, the new trains are fitted with a new signalling and automatic train control system which allows trains to run more frequently, more smoothly and provide additional capacity. The existing trains are more than 40 years old and are reaching the end of their economic life. Question 2 Of particular note is the faffing around we seem to have at every station with the doors - I assume they are somewhat more sensitive than the old ones. I estimated this morning that we wasted the best part of 5 minutes between Finsbury Park and Green Park with the doors swishing to and fro and the driver (quite rightly) getting a tad annoyed - as I was. I'm also finding that my average arrival time at work is getting slightly later. LUL Response Our records for the 17th December 2010 (the date of your request) show a total of 8 service affecting delays of 2 minutes or more (delays of less than 2 minutes’ duration are not recorded). Two of these delays were associated with the door system on the new trains: Euston southbound at 08:04 (3 minutes) and Vauxhall northbound at 08:59 (2 minutes). The morning peak service was also adversely affected by a failure of the legacy signalling system at 08:07. The legacy system will be progressively de-commissioned during 2011 and early 2012 once all the old trains have been withdrawn from service. Question 3 Are the doors on these trains more sensitive than the old ones? LUL Response The door system on the new trains has a new ‘obstacle detection’ system that partially re-opens a door that encounters an obstruction during closure, then re-closes it slowly. This is new to London Underground but many modern train door systems incorporate this feature. The doors also have a ‘sensitive edge’ system with special door edge rubbers. This supplements the new train’s in-cab CCTV display of the platform/train interface in order to provide additional protection against the risk of dragging a passenger trapped in the doors (by their coat, for example) along the platform. If the new system detects a trapped object after the doors have closed and before the last car of the train has left the platform, the emergency brake is applied as a precaution. This new system replaces more traditional methods of detecting trapped objects with the aim of improving reliability; we have experienced reliability problems with the doors on previous new trains on other lines. Question 4 What is the relative sensitivity between the old and new stock - i.e. how much of a door gap is enough to cause this problem? LUL Response For the old stock, when the door is closing, the door is indicated as open for a gap of 12.5mm and indicated as closed for a gap of 11mm. Trapped objects are not detected for gaps smaller than 11mm. For the new trains, when the door is closing, the door is indicated as open for a gap of 8mm and closed for a gap of 6mm. However, the sensitive edge system detects objects smaller than 6mm, particularly if they are pulled tight, after the doors have been closed and positively locked. Question 5 Assuming I am on the right lines- how many incidents in say that last year have there been on the Victoria Line old stock related to the doors having something stuck in them that was not detected on closing? LUL Response The most immediate means for a passenger to alert the Train Operator to an item caught in the train doors is use of the Passenger Emergency Alarm. From our records for the period from 1st January to 16th December 2010, there were 12 activations of the Passenger Emergency Alarm on the old trains relating to objects trapped in the doors that were not detected on closing. Question 6 Are there any plans to de-sensitise the doors a wee bit? LUL Response We are working with our suppliers to investigate the possibility of modifying the door sensitive edge system in a way that would discriminate between objects trapped and being pulled from outside the train and objects trapped and being pulled from inside. This would give the possibility of applying the emergency brake only in the case of pulling from outside the train when there is a risk that a passenger could be dragged. Part of the change would be to modify the profile of the door edge rubber if practicable to make it easier for passengers to pull trapped objects free. We are also investigating whether there would be benefit in providing a ‘limited pushback’ facility that would enable a customer with an object trapped in the doors to push the door open slightly to enable the trapped object to be withdrawn. It is too early to say what the outcome of this investigation will be. Meanwhile we are re-briefing our Train Operators on the best way to respond to activations of the detection system in order to minimise delays to the service. Question 7 What data do you have on the relative time it takes the old and the new stock to get from one end of the line to the other or even between stations as it does seem the normal dwell times are longer with the new trains leaving aside the door issue. LUL Response Night time testing of the new system has been carried out to assess the fastest ‘end to end’ journey times attainable by the new trains, but during the traffic day both the old and the new trains work interchangeably to the same timetable. The new trains are designed to achieve faster inter-station run times, and the track and power supply have been upgraded to support this. Typically, the new trains can achieve ‘start to stop’ run times from one station to the next around 12% better than the old trains. With the current timetable this can result in longer dwells at stations to enable on-time departure and minimise the risk of trains being stopped in tunnels. Following withdrawal of the last of the old stock it is planned to implement a new timetable that takes advantage of the increased performance of the new trains. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| LUL Victoria line trains 26/01/2011 at 21:47 #13344 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
Very interesting that they gave you those statistics and gave such detail about what they intended to do - even if the whole thing has a slight tone of "there isn't a problem but we're fixing it"! Naturally, I'd expect them to be careful about their choice of words.
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| LUL Victoria line trains 27/01/2011 at 18:58 #13350 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts |
As with any new train (and the Metropolitan / Sub-surface Railways are closely following the Victoria line with new trains) there are bound to be "teething problems." Strangely enough, it appears that after years of having "tailor-made" trains, now we have switched to "off the shelf" models, we're getting a few more of those teething problems. One would think some of the biggest problems would have been ironed out by previous purchasers of similar units. "Sensitive edge" hasn't yet caused as many problems on the Met / SSR, but as far as I'm aware the system has not been fully switched in. Plus our trains haven't yet experienced the sort of loadings the Victoria line has on a daily basis. It is unfortunately a requirement of our new stocks to have this system, There have been simply too many incidents (publicly reported or investigated internally) that require it's use. Fortunately the majority have been zero-injury cases of people thinking they can beat the doors and end up looking very silly. But for the small number that have been far more serious, increased safety has to be implemented. Most "trying" of all with the new stock, where older trains rely on the knowledge of years gone by, what fixes 95% of problems on new trains is a computer reboot. Where an old train could have limped home with a quick fix or something cut out, a new train will simply die and refuse to budge because "The computer says no." It's a learning curve for many people right now, but I'm sure in the months/years to come everything will sort itself out. Log in to reply |
| LUL Victoria line trains 29/01/2011 at 02:41 #13356 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
I think I saw something related to this on Thursday. Just got onto the northbound Victoria Line platform at Victoria and there was a new stock in - the main platform entrance I had come in at was at one end of the platform (probably the 'country end'(?)) and it was also where the rear of the northbound trains are too. I wanted to get to around the middle of the train for a quicker interchange at another station further along the line and didn't feel like rushing to make it so strolled up the platform despite the fact that the train was there already. Driver began to close the doors but someone at the rear of the train held the very last set of double-doors open and then once they'd let go of them the doors actually stayed almost 'stuck' open (almost like half open half closed). Seems that there was someone attentive in the control room and they made PA announcements not to hold the doors open etc etc and eventually made announcement for BTP to the platform. Anyway driver reopened all doors then closed them again successfully this time and train left. All in all it felt like a 4 minute delay to the train, but of course it's not that easy to tell unless you've got the current WTT to hand. Whilst spending a bit of the day today (yesterday now) with TRC666 for last day of Wrexham & Shropshire I think I recall he mentioned that if someone does hold the door open it mucks up the train and the driver has to do some kind of reset to the train, so one has to assume that is what happened. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 05/08/2011 at 19:53 #19157 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Slightly related RAIB investigation to do with the new stock... RAIB said: Investigation into an incident at Warren Street station, Victoria Line, London Underground, 11 July 2011Remembered this forum thread as I was reading the above so just thought I'd share. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 08:52 #19166 | |
northroad
872 posts |
My recent experience on the Victoria line sort of backs up the story of problems they seem to be having. Travelled into town last Monday morning to get a visa at the Korean Embassy. did the usual trick of changing from the Piccadilly to the Victoria at Finsbury Park and that was a bad move. Not to far on we stopped in the tunnel with the driver announcing that there was a failed train at Highbury and Islington and they were investigating. Several minutes later and several more announcements from the driver we were told that they were going to take it out of service and reverse it at Warren Street but it would only be travelling at a reduced speed of 20 mph to get there. Another few minutes and the train that was immediately in front of us was also having difficulties. The end result was we eventually got as far as Kings Cross and they suspended everything. Give the driver of our service credit he did keep us up to speed every 2 minutes or so but we eventually found out it was the doors that had caused the problem....just another day.... Geoff Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 10:27 #19168 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
I'm attending a job interview in Leatherhead on Tuesday, and am trekking down from Mansfield via St Pancras. Would it be a recommended idea to avoid the Victoria Line, and if so, which is the best route? Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 11:03 #19170 | |
postal
5264 posts 
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Depends how long you've got for the cross-town. You can get the 73 bus from the other side of Euston Road opposite St. Pancras direct to Victoria Station Bus Concourse but it takes getting on for an hour.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 06/08/2011 at 11:03 by postal Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 11:47 #19171 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
Ben I would presume your going to Waterloo for your train to catch an SWT down to Leatherhead. In that case, this could work. Northern Line: Kings Cross/St Pancras - London Bridge Jubilee Line: London Bridge - Waterloo "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 11:55 #19172 | |
andyb0607
260 posts |
Sacro Get the FCC to Sutton or Wimbledon and then a Southern (from Sutton) or South West Trains (from WImbledon) to Leatherhead. Avoid the tube all together then Andy Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 15:44 #19173 | |
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Albert
1315 posts |
'WHERE IS MY TUBE MAP???' Oh yes it's between all those old manuals and CD's of computers, printers, TV's, etc. Took me months to find out that the map was there, but since I found it last week, today I needed just a minute to get the map. You can walk to Euston (or take the bus or the tube) and there take the Northern line, if you're indeed going to Waterloo to get the Southern. AJP in games Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 15:57 #19174 | |
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northroad
872 posts |
Agree with Albert completely on this one. Northern Line to Waterloo (Charing Cross Branch) from Euston. Geoff Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 21:41 #19182 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Somehow, I seem to avoid Victoria Line troubles, so I'm happy to travel on it and don't tend to try and avoid it unless any known problems. If you're going from Waterloo then Victoria Line to Oxford Circus and cross-platform to the Bakerloo Line. If you're going from Victoria then just get the Victoria Line. Alternatively you may also be able to do Victoria Line to Vauxhall to change onto SWT services there if you're taking them to Leatherhead, but I haven't checked if you can get to Leatherhead from there direct.
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 21:50 #19184 | |
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postal
5264 posts
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" said:I'm attending a job interview in Leatherhead on Tuesday, and am trekking down from Mansfield via St Pancras.Never mind all the conflicting advice, Ben. Best of luck with the interview. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: UKTrainMan |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 21:59 #19188 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
" said:Best of luck with the interview.Good luck with your interview from me aswell Ben! 
"Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 06/08/2011 at 22:02 #19189 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
" said:Best of luck with the interview.Knew I'd left something out of my post that I intended to add..! Ditto the above. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 06/08/2011 at 22:03 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 07/08/2011 at 10:11 #19200 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
Thanks guys, I'll keep an eye on the services as I travel down, I'll probably go via Vauxhall but it's nice to know alternatives! 
Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 11/08/2011 at 13:26 #19336 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
Thanks for the advice and wishes guys, my journey was trouble free (apart from leaving my tickets in the taxi and having to replace them :(), and I got the position offered!
Last edited: 11/08/2011 at 13:26 by Sacro Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 11/08/2011 at 14:45 #19338 | |
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postal
5264 posts
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Well done, Ben (apart from the tickets!).
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: LUL Victoria line trains 11/08/2011 at 15:06 #19339 | |
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northroad
872 posts |
I second that....well done Geoff Log in to reply |