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| "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 03:12 #23031 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Just another suggestion stolen from Train Dispatcher: It can be frustrating after setting a route for a train waiting at a red signal when it just sits there and doesn't appear to want to move. Particularly if it's a slow goods train, it can take a few anxious minutes before it begins to creep forward. Should I check the phone calls list to see if the driver's asking me for authority? Etc. To avoid this, as soon as a route is set and there is no impediment to motion, why not immediately change the train's status on the Train List from "Waiting at red signal xxx" to "Preparing to move" (while its speed remains 0 mph)? This would greatly increase one's confidence. Last edited: 16/11/2011 at 03:13 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 07:18 #23037 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
You can see if he/she's phoning you because the phone button will be flashing - and if you set a sound for it, you can hear it ringing too. Moreover, if the train is waiting for authority to proceed, it should say so in the train list status field. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 07:41 #23039 | |
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alvinhochun
249 posts |
I suspect that the train driver is playing his/her iPhone so he/she missed the signal has changed to green?  @Forest Pines, I think maxand is talking about the delay between completing setting a route and for the train driver to actually start the train. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 08:36 #23040 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Alvin, you're right, that's what I meant. Perhaps "authority" was a bad example. Trouble with the phone ringing is that there may be several trains trying to ring in at once. However, if you DON'T see the name of the train that you're looking for, that probably would mean that he is preparing to move and has no need to ring you. Not as positive as seeing a "Preparing to move" status message on the Train List IMO. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 09:35 #23043 | |
postal
5265 posts |
I can only speak personally about what gives me enjoyment from SimSig, but having worked in logistics for 40 years I value SimSig for its attempts to match reality rather than for its capacity to be a "game". Given the desire of SimSig to replicate real life, how does the "preparing to move" message fit with that? The real-life signaller has no idea whether the driver is blowing off the brake and pushing the controller over or just sitting with his feet up playing a game on his iPhone. And I dare say it is quite realistic to have more than one phone ringing at once - it certainly used to happen everywhere I worked.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: UKTrainMan |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 10:11 #23044 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:Alvin, you're right, that's what I meant. Perhaps "authority" was a bad example.There aren't many situations, though, in which he/she would be phoning in whilst sat at an off signal. Requiring verbal authority to proceed is one of them (and even then, he probably wouldn't actually be sat at a signal). Phoning in to report the results of an examination you've asked him to do is another, but you'd be expecting that one. I'm with what Postal said on this. In real life you don't have a train list window. In SimSig, you already get a lot more help than real life: the train list shows a lot of statuses that in the real world you wouldn't know about, such as "driver on phone to someone else" (I forget the exact wording of that one; it is a fairly new inclusion). Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 10:15 #23045 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
I can only imagine the noise level in the ops room at a place like Satley (WMCC) or Glasgow Central.......
"Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 10:35 #23047 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
In my experience large signalling centres are actually quite quiet places.
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| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 10:36 #23048 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Didn't have iphones in my day... so the chances are the driver was resting his eyes (not sleeping of course, oh no perish the thought, as Sir Humphrey would say) or engrossed in his News of the World or his cup of tea. I'm told that, in the old days (yes there was a time before I was on the railway ) a bucket would be hooked over the balance weight lever so it fell off when the signal was cleared... no buckets on leckys or diseasels, and you can't do that with a colour light in any case. No way of telling from the box what was happening either, unless the peg was just outside; nowt to do but wait until the so-and-so saw he had the road and got himself in gear. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 18:03 #23064 | |
jc92
3690 posts 
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surely its your own fault for pulling off for a train before booked time if it sits waiting departure time for several minutes? if i a driver is booked out a particular time, theres nothing to stop him waiting for it. he might have nipped to the toilet or got off to stretch his legs during a booked stop
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 16/11/2011 at 21:23 #23096 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Plus the delay between a signal clearing and the train moving off really isn't more than a few seconds in SimSig, provided the train isn't at a booked stop.
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| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 02:33 #23110 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
jc92 said Quote: surely its your own fault for pulling off for a train before booked time if it sits waiting departure time for several minutes? if i a driver is booked out a particular time, theres nothing to stop him waiting for it. he might have nipped to the toilet or got off to stretch his legs during a booked stopWhat does "pulling off for a train" mean? and whose fault did you mean and why? The driver's or the signaller's? Sorry I don't understand the jargon. Forest Pines said Quote: I'm with what Postal said on this. In real life you don't have a train list window. In SimSig, you already get a lot more help than real life: the train list shows a lot of statuses that in the real world you wouldn't know aboutWhen I started this thread I was really thinking about freight trains and how long they take to actually start moving (releasing air brakes, etc.). This can take a couple of minutes with long trains in a sim, not a few seconds (Danny252's comment). So, if we choose to display SimSig's Train List window that departs from authenticity but provides the simmer with much-needed data such as train speeds, etc., why should it still show "Waiting at red signal xxxx" when the signal has already changed to green and the route is fully set? Try this on any train. That the message persists and is, strictly speaking, inaccurate just adds to confusion and makes me want to go back and confirm that I did set the route correctly, which wastes time. It's nothing to do with real life, as you point out. It's simply a SimSig design issue that should be addressed. On this point, how many of you guys who are sticklers for authenticity actually use the Train List? C'mon, admit it - I bet most of you do, though strictly speaking you shouldn't. Last edited: 17/11/2011 at 02:35 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 07:25 #23117 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:I use it when I find I need to use it. That is: I use it when I need to send a train an instruction which can only be done through it, of course, like some particularly awkward shunts, or when shuffling a train about will help it "get behind" a signal so it doesn't have to phone in before moving. I use it when I'm playing a sim that only has maybe one train in the area, and I'm a bit bored, so I pull it up to double-check my knowledge of speed limits in the area and watch how a train in that area changes speed as it runs. In the real world I could always sit and read the Sectional Appendix. On a busy sim, I bring it up if a train phones in and I'm not sure of its location, to see where it is, before I answer the phone. And that's about it. Certainly I wouldn't have it open all the time: it wastes too much space on the screen. Last edited: 17/11/2011 at 15:19 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 07:51 #23118 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Use it a lot for debugging in development otherwise hand of god stuff really. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 10:50 #23126 | |
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jc92
3690 posts
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why have i been quoted forest pines? and maxand- pulling off = clearing signals "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 11:39 #23130 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:jc92 said As jc92 says, clearing signals. Again, the origins are historical; what follows is educated conjecture. The earliest signals were flags (later boards) or lamps hooked onto a post to indicate "stop". To authorise a train to proceed you would literally "take off" the signal. There's a good overview of developments here http://www.railsigns.co.uk/, look in section 1 (then sect 2 for later developments, up to & including the most modern colour lights). "Off" thus seems to have come into use for authorising a train to proceed past the location of a signal. Originally, all signals were operated locally, either by hoisting the flag or by some sort of lever mounted on the post. The poor policeman (forerunner of the signalman - and origin of the term "bobby" for a signalman) had to run all around the station to operate the signals; fortunately (for him) signals were few and so, generally, were trains. Later, means were developed of controlling signals from a central location - a signal cabin or signal box - using levers and/or stirrups working systems of rods & wires (and many were the wierd & wonderful systems that came into being). Fairly quickly, though, the lever frame that we're now familiar with became standard. Invariably, the new equipment required the pulling of a lever to take off the signal, hence "pulling off". Miniature lever power frames retained the feature that moving the lever towards the operator cleared the signal. And tradition led to the term being retained when the levers were replaced by switches or the push-button routesetting systems that became the standard from the 1960s onwards. Incidentally, "Off" has become an official term; indicators for platform staff show "OFF" when a platform-end signal clears and, where lever frames work colour light signals, it is common to find a red visual repeating the danger indication with an illuminated visual saying "OFF" for clear. (In the US - and, I suspect, places influenced by their practice - "pulling off" was meaningless, the more so as the most common design of power frame had "levers" that rotated from side to side in front of the operator. So their term - I suspect arising from the early adoption of upper quadrant semaphores - was "bring up". I believe some Australian states adopted US signalling practice and would be interested to know if the terminology was likewise transferred.) Those early signals influenced less official jargon too; signals were commonly referred to as "boards" in some areas (notably the old Great Northern Railway), on the London Midland Region of BR (so, presumably, one or more of its predecessors) the term "pegs" was used (a reference to the signal arm or the post it was on, perhaps?) while London Underground staff refer to "sticks". I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this forum use those terms though. Hope this is useful/interesting. Keith the old Dinosaur Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 11:47 #23131 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks again jc92 and to Keith for your erudite explanation. Most interesting! Appreciate your effort in responding in this way.
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| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 15:28 #23148 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:why have i been quoted forest pines?My mistake there - I mis-edited maxand's post and didn't fully crop out his quote of you. Fixed now. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 15:48 #23150 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
The F2 list is also required for a lot of actions which would in reality done by telephone to drivers. eg. "Driver 2Z00, please change ends and draw up to the next signal in that direction" in real life translates to the use of the reverse direction option via F2 in SimSig. Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 18:08 #23155 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
Because you do not really have drivers out there who you can ask to change ends are reverse, or who don't *always* behave in an expected way, then F2 is there for get you out of extreme problems that might develop. The amount of work that has gone in to Edinburgh SimSig to make the sleeper train divides and joins work correctly *without* using the F2 menu just shows how much people do not want to use it. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: AndyG |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 18:20 #23159 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
My point exactly - essentially a driver will know his diagram (or at least he should) and will change ends when it dictates. This situation will apply without intervention from the user of SimSig providing the timetable is written correctly - ie a driver requiring to reverse at Bristol East will do so as long as his timetable shows that. The only time the F2 should be needed is as a "get you out of trouble" option where something which is not to timetable is required, just as in reality the Signalman would only have to phone a driver if something unusual or not to his diagram is required. Last edited: 17/11/2011 at 19:23 by Stephen Fulcher Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 17/11/2011 at 21:33 #23167 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
While I don't have a problem with the original suggestion in general, it depends on what the majority want. Adding such information to the "show timetable" view (which, obviously, is exactly what it does and no more currently) uses up valuable real estate so quite possibly not everybody wants it. It also harkens back to an earlier comment you made about not wanting more than one way to find the same information. Goodness knows what you do confronted by two entrances to the same shop. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 18/11/2011 at 02:17 #23183 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Geoff, was your reply above intended for my thread Show Timetable to display Train List data? Quote: It also harkens back to an earlier comment you made about not wanting more than one way to find the same information.I don't recall making such a comment, unless you were referring to this post, which refers to one user function that might be mistaken for another. I think you will agree that as large, complex software matures (and becomes even larger and more complex) the differing workflows adopted by various users become more apparent in their requests for change. The bigger and older the app, the more ways the user has of doing the same thing. Thanks for giving this your attention and I hope one day a single Train Details window, or the like, will make its appearance. Last edited: 18/11/2011 at 02:22 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 18/11/2011 at 07:34 #23197 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:Geoff, was your reply above intended for my thread Show Timetable to display Train List data?Yes, sorry. " said: Quote:No, somewhere you didn't like the fact the Wiki had two lnks to the user manuals.It also harkens back to an earlier comment you made about not wanting more than one way to find the same information.I don't recall making such a comment, unless you were referring to this post, which refers to one user function that might be mistaken for another. " said: I think you will agree that as large, complex software matures (and becomes even larger and more complex) the differing workflows adopted by various users become more apparent in their requests for change. The bigger and older the app, the more ways the user has of doing the same thing. Thanks for giving this your attention and I hope one day a single Train Details window, or the like, will make its appearance.I can't guarantee that all ideas happen, especially if the majority don't want that particular idea. We do listen and the ideas that are workable and popular do get done, and have done so in the past. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Re: "Preparing to move" 18/11/2011 at 10:42 #23212 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:We do listen and the ideas that are workable and popular do get done, and have done so in the past. And so do some that're less popular... I probably have to confess that the "phone control" phone call that's been discussed recently may well have come from my suggestion for (the only) way a SPAD might be allowed (and I still don't quite know whether the affected train can run on past the red onto the approach-locked route). Perhaps I'd better get my coat... Log in to reply |