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| Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 14:02 #23361 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
The time is 07:15 and 2C04, travelling UP to Camden, has been stuck at Kilburn High St. for 15 mins without showing any inclination to move.  As the panel shows, there is no route I can set to help it further. Of course, I could tell the driver to pass signal at danger, except that there's no red signal to pass. But lo and behold, the order works, the train moves on, stops at South Hampstead and continues to Camden. Does this kind of event happen often in SimSig, and is there some explanation for it? I shouldn't have to tell the driver to move, since the grey signal ahead is supposed to mean that the train is controlled by another signal box. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 14:59 #23364 | |
Steamer
3997 posts |
That signal is controlled by you- if it weren't, there wouldn't be a replacement switch. To see the aspect, tick 'show automatic signal aspects' in F3. As to the actual problem, have you read this bit in the Wiki? Quote: Trains can only be signalled on to the Bakerloo Line at Queens Park if there is an LU headcode (see below) in the train describer berth at signal 8 and they have fourth-rail power (there is a negative shoe detector approaching the signal). If a train with an LU headcode is signalled towards Kilburn High Road from signal 4 (Queens Park Up line), signal 2 will revert to red and stay so until the train has reversed.Earlier on, did you accidentally send a Bakerloo train towards Camden and then change the route following the 'wrong route' phone call? If so, Signal 2 will still be held at red. In this case, the way to get round the problem is when the next train to Camden Road gets to Kilburn, set a route from S7 to S11. Then authorise the train to pass signal 2, and when it's cleared the platform, replace Signal 7, and Signal 2 will work correctly. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 20/11/2011 at 15:36 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 15:30 #23365 | |
Peter Bennet
5419 posts |
" said:That signal is controlled by you- if it weren't, there wouldn't be a replacement switch. To see the aspect, tick 'show automatic signal aspects' in F3. As to the actual problem, have you read this bit in the Wiki?'Cept that this is not a Bakerloo line train. The "E" button is clear so that's not affecting the signal- as you say enabling auto signals should at least tell us if the signal is Red which might be causing the train to stop at the station- but why? Has there been a signal failure? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 15:34 #23366 | |
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Steamer
3997 posts |
" said:Apologies, I'd forgot to say- If a Bakerloo train was routed earlier towards Camden by mistake, even if the route was then corrected following a phone call, Signal 2 would be held at Red. [Original post now edited] "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 20/11/2011 at 15:38 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 16:02 #23367 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
This was sort of previously covered in this thread...
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 20/11/2011 at 22:59 #23385 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Awesome replies, thanks. Here's a pic with the signal numbers marked to make the explanations above clearer:  As you can also see, 2C04 is now off to Camden and nearly offscreen. Steamer asked Quote: Earlier on, did you accidentally send a Bakerloo train towards Camden and then change the route following the 'wrong route' phone call? If so, Signal 2 will still be held at red.I don't recall doing so, though it's possible. Quote: To see the aspect, tick 'show automatic signal aspects' in F3I checked, and this aspect had been ticked. I believe it's on by default. Quote: Another way to get round the problem is when the next train to Camden Road gets there, set a route from S7 to S11. Then authorise the train to pass signal 2, and when it's cleared the platform, replace Signal 7, and Signal 2 will work correctly.Thanks for your suggestion. I will try this if the situation recurs. What does "replace Signal 7" mean? Cancel the route just set? Also thanks UKTrainMan for your link to the other thread about this. Last edited: 20/11/2011 at 23:03 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 08:14 #23391 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
" said:Also try un-ticking "panel signals" in the f3 display settings Alan Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 08:15 by alan_s Reason: tidy-up format Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 09:14 #23393 | |
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clive
2799 posts |
From those screen shots you've clearly got a display option wrong. Grey means one of: * signal controlled by another signal box (you can usually tell these from the number); * automatic signal and you're not displaying automatic signal aspects in F3; * signal whose aspect doesn't appear on the real panel and you have panel aspects on in F3. As a rule of thumb, if the signal has a number that shows your box owns it, there's a way to see the aspect. For WembleySub, I think that means all signals with no prefix and a couple of the Watford Junction signals. To "replace" a signal means to return it to red. You do that either by cancelling the route set from it or, if it's an automatic, by pulling (right-clicking) the E button if there is one. If there isn't, you're out of luck. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 10:48 #23395 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Clive for explaining grey signals in greater detail - the Wiki just says "Signal controlled by another signalbox". Quote: From those screen shots you've clearly got a display option wrong.Do you mean I changed a display option between taking the screen pic and describing the problem? Not that I recall.  These are the options I've always used, though your suggestion of unchecking Panel signals is appealing as it seems to add more realism. I must say that checking/unchecking Show automatic signal aspects and Display automatic signal posts makes no obvious difference that I can detect. The blue roundels with the A work equally well, and in neither case is a signal post part of it! Can anyone explain this a bit more clearly? What does the red E next to an automatic signal control button stand for? I know what the button does, but why the letter E? Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 11:07 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 11:57 #23405 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
E = Emergency
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 12:10 #23411 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
The "E" means "Emergency replace". The signals with the blue A buttons aren't automatic signals, they're semi-automatic signals: the button controls whether or not they are automatic or manual. Automatic signals are ones like signal 2, showing grey in that screenshot. Because you have "panel signals" checked, the screen shows a similar display to a real panel box: automatic signals have their location shown in grey, and controlled "running signals" (whether fully manual or semi-automatic) show red or green depending if they are showing stop or not - any proceed aspect is shown as green on the screen, but the physical signal on the ground (not that it actually exists!) might be showing green, or yellow, or double yellow, depending on the signals further down the line (and other things, but I'm trying to keep this simple). "Running signals" means ones shown with circular aspects on the screen (they mean the train can proceed and the line is clear), as opposed to "shunt signals", which are quarter circles which show white for proceed (they mean the train can proceed, but the line might not be clear). If you untick "panel signals" the display will change. Instead of showing just red or green, the signals will show red, yellow, double yellow or green, the same as the driver sees; and the same as a more modern signalbox display would show. Because you also have "show automatic signal aspects" ticked, all of the running signals will display their aspect, not just the controlled ones. Including signal 2 on the screenshot there. Unticking "show automatic signal aspects" should make signal 2 go back to grey again. The "show automatic signal aspects" option has no effect if "panel signals" is checked, because "panel signals" overrides it. As for "display automatic signal posts": if you look at the screenshot, you'll see that the controlled signals have a plain "stem" representing the signal post, but the automatic signals have a crossbar crossing that stem. This is a representation of the post plate which appears on the physical signals on the ground, to tell the driver that the signal is automatic (which alters the way the driver treats it in case of failure, but only in circumstances you won't see in the sim). If you untick "display automatic signal posts", all the signals should be shown with the plain stem. Last edited: 21/11/2011 at 12:12 by Forest Pines Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 12:17 #23413 | |
jc92
3701 posts |
" said:The "E" means "Emergency replace".signals with an automatic working button are not semi automatic signals, they are controlled signals, and are plated as such. a semi automatic signal is an automatic signal which can be replaced to danger under certain circumstances, EG to protect the use of a groundframe in rear of the signal. also automatic signals with ERS's are not semi automatic signals "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hooverman |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 12:19 #23414 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:EG to protect the use of a groundframe in rear of the signal.They'd be better to protect things in advance! Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 12:20 #23415 | |
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jc92
3701 posts |
yes they would 
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 12:47 #23417 | |
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kbarber
1764 posts |
" said:
"Panel Signals" (and displaying, or not, auto signal aspects) offers the option of seeing the indications of a NX panel (standard from late 1950s until fairly recently, and using indications that were standard on the old LNER). Displaying auto signal posts will show a small crossbar on the posts of auto signals, a representation (in reverse video) of the horizontal black bar on a white plate used on the signal post to designate auto signals to drivers. In a LNER (or Eastern Region) manual signalbox, the indication for colour light signals it controlled would be red when the signal was at danger or green for any other aspect. The earliest "panel" signalboxes were developed for the LNER and, not surprisingly, adopted the same conventions; as the LMS indication for a non-danger aspect was an illuminated visual saying "OFF" and the Southern Railway had a stack of lights behind each lever that reproduced the aspect in full, it's not really surprising that green for "off" remained the standard as long as panels were being built - a 3rd colour would add to the complications and the YY aspect even more so. In reality the signalman only needs to know whether the signal is at danger or some other aspect, it's pretty irrelevant what it is. (Apart from subsidiary or shunt signals, which used a separate aperture from a main aspect & showed white for "off".) In automatic sections, the aspects the signals were showing never appeared in the signalbox at all. Track circuits were indicated, of course, and that was all the signalman needed - if a train called in from a red or dark signal the signalman only needed to know that the TCs to the next signal were showing clear or occupied to know what his response should be. As indicating every signal would need a plethora of additional wires and, in large panels, a lot of extra light bulbs (with all the extra heat they'd generate) - therefore lots of £££ - for no extra useful information, it just wasn't done. With Solid State Interlocking every signal aspect (including those for automatic signals) was generated by the SSI so providing full indication was a trivial extra job for a VDU control interface (it remained non-trivial where control was by a panel, even though LEDs had replaced lamps, so panels remained as they always had been). "E" indicates that it's an emergency replacement control on what's otherwise an auto signal. The earliest panels didn't have them, until an incident where a derailed freight train couldn't be stopped for miles & miles (nor trains on adjacent lines) led to them being provided. I think I'm right in saying the requirement was one in every five auto signals, with extra provision if needed for the signals in rear of tunnels, level crossings, etc. Switches with the same function were also fitted in non-panel boxes (we had one in Marylebone). In the 1990s there was a recommendation (Uff/Cullen report?) that all signals have emergency replacement; non-trivial with SSI/VDU and I suspect not yet implemented elsewhere. Incidentally, on a panel emergency replacement switches always work by being pulled up, not only because that's common with the working of controlled signal buttons but also because it avoids accidentally dropping a red on an approaching train by catching a button. "Emergency alarm" buttons work in the same way for the same reason. "A" buttons are to make the signal concerned work automatically; when right-clicked (it will show just a blue ring) the signal will not clear again after returning to danger, but the route will have to be set again. Once more there have been different ideas over the years. On the miniature lever frames installed by the Southern Railway (possibly where mechanical frames worked colour lights as well?) certain controlled signals would be set up to work automatically when their lever was reversed. (I've heard these referred to as "semi-automatic". I don't know whether that was an official designation or not. It is nothing at all to do with semi-automatic as we now understand it, so don't be misled.) Incidentally, those levers had a form of approach locking - once the signal had cleared, the lever couldn't be returned fully to the normal position, although they could be restored to the "B" (or normal checklock) position, which would restore the signal to danger. That's fair enough; what wasn't fair enough was that there was no timeout; the lever would never release from that position, so a wrong route remained locked up for ever. The technicians at those boxes had special authority to release the backlock when requested by the signalman, in order to prevent the entire railway coming to a stand. Some LNER panels had certain signals grouped and, when all were set for the proper routes, the whole group would work as autos (there was a lunar white visual indication on the panel to show what groups were in auto). The groups and routes were chosen because they would go for long periods without needing any different route set up. If one signal in the group was put back behind a train, automatic working would stop for the whole group and all would have to be restored to normal before being set again. (This feature was being installed as late as 1961 - there were some 5 auto groups on Barking panel.) I'm not sure when the first auto buttons were installed but my money would be on one of the 1960s WCML panels (Nuneaton, Rugby, Bletchley, Watford or Stoke, I'm sure Euston had none but that was because there was nowhere that had successive repeated moves). Because they cost money to install they were only provided at signals where many successive trains followed the same route - there was a trade-off, because they might reduce the workload enough that less signalmen were needed. They became standard and appeared in just about every major panel box until ARS appeared in the late 1980s as well as a number afterwards (I think Wimbledon Panel has them, for instance). HTIOI Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 14:38 #23431 | |
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clive
2799 posts |
Just a note: Wembley Sub is a workstation and not an panel, so "panel signals" is not prototypical for it.
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| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 21/11/2011 at 14:43 #23432 | |
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clive
2799 posts |
" said:Euston didn't have them, but there's a string of signals where they would have been useful: all four running lines from the station throat to the crossovers at Camden South Jn. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 02/12/2011 at 02:36 #24270 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you everyone for the extra responses, especially Forest Pines and Keith for all that information. Much clearer about all these signals now. :) A couple of minor questions resulting from this. Do real panel displays show crossbars (Display automatic signal posts) on automatic signals to tell them apart from running signals? One might think there was no need for this since with Panel signals ON, automatic signals will be grey anyway. Also, is there any way to distinguish between a grey "Signal controlled by another signalbox" and an automatic signal, except possibly by their behaviour? See the Signal types table on the Signalling Display Wiki page. I notice that, compared with an "Automatic signal", a "Signal controlled by another signalbox" has no crossbar. However that may not be relevant since the option to display automatic signal posts seems to affect all signals with a grey circular aspect in the sims I have played. Maybe to tell the difference one has to uncheck Panel display? Doing this, I see that in the Royston sim, the three automatic signals between Ashwell & Morden have a green aspect whereas the five between A&M and "To Baldock" don't change at all when a train passes, so maybe these are considered to be under Kings Cross control.  This might sound a bit pedantic, but I'm keen to get the terminology of these automatic and "semi-automatic" signals correct. What's the preferred terminology for - A signal controlled by another signalbox (is this also considered to be an "automatic" signal?) - A grey signal without an E button ("automatic" signal?) - A grey signal with an E button ("automatic signal with emergency replace"? sounds like a mouthful - maybe "semi-automatic" as jc92 suggests?) - A running signal with an A button ("controlled signal with automatic override"?) Thanks for suggestions here - I'm thinking of adding this to the Wiki page to make it clearer. Last edited: 02/12/2011 at 02:37 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 02/12/2011 at 06:54 #24273 | |
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clive
2799 posts |
Okay, this is a bit complicated, so bear with me. The first distinction is between "passable" and "non-passable". A passable signal is one that a driver may pass at danger on his own authority under certain circumstances (usually because both the radio and the phones are broken). Passable signals are indicated by a white plate with a black horizontal bar on it. The "passable" bar is usually drawn on the signalling panel so that the signaller knows about it. If you look at http://www.davros.org/rail/photos/p009.html you'll see some. As far as signallers are concerned, there are four basic kinds of signals: - controlled signals, which they set routes from - automatic signals, that work themselves and can't be controlled by the signaller - semi-automatic signals, that are automatic but revert to danger when something special happens such as releasing a ground frame - someone else's signals, that they can (mostly) ignore. On a typical NX panel controlled signals have a lamp to show the aspect, while the other three don't. Look again at that picture; the signal at Stansted, right at the top-left, is a controlled signal worked by Liverpool Street. Signallers distinguish automatic signals from someone else's signals by their knowledge of their panel and by the number printed on the panel. IECCs, on the other hand, show the aspects of all signals including automatics - one of the WembleySub splash screens shows this. Now to move to SimSig. There are three kinds of signals in the core code: - controlled signals, that have routes set from them; - automatic signals, whose aspect is determined track circuit occupation and possibly other bits of the simulation code; - external signals, which behave like automatic signals but are displayed differently. It's the distinction between these three that affects what happens with "panel signals" and so on. By default, the "passable" bar is shown on automatic signals but not the other two, but the sim designer can override this; in the case of WembleySub they've been matched against the real world signals. The "E" button is a feature that can be added to automatic signals. I call it "automatic signal with emergency replacement" or "automatic signal with an E button". I can't recall offhand if it can be added to external signals as well. The "A" button is a feature that can be added to controlled signals. I call it "signal with A button" or "controlled signal that can work automatically". Neither of these affect the basic signal type. One other caveat: when two simulations are chained together, some signals will appear on both of them. In this case one simulation "owns" the signal and determines its aspect on *both* simulations. This is true even if the signal is a controlled signal on the other simulation. So you could find that the "E" button doesn't work on such a signal while chained (but the sim designer ought to design around that). When the chain is broken the signal goes back to working normally. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: 9pN1SEAp, BarryM, Forest Pines |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 02/12/2011 at 07:24 #24274 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
" said:A passable signal is one that a driver may pass at danger on his own authority under certain circumstances (usually because both the radio and the phones are broken). Not anymore I'm afraid. From tomorrow, that rule is being withdrawn and drivers now cannot pass automatic or semi-automatic signals on their own authority. Page 56 module AM. IB instructions and box closed instructions are unchanged. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 02/12/2011 at 11:06 #24280 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks Clive and Ralph. Clive said: Quote: - external signals, which behave like automatic signals but are displayed differently.Did you mean that "external signals" are the same as "other people's signals"? If so, were you referring to the fact that they always maintain a grey aspect even when Panel display is unchecked (see my pic above)? Or is there some other difference? In the Royston sim anyway (see above) the automatic signals at entry and exit all have crossbars, yet their behaviour appears to fit the definition of external signal. In Wembley Suburban, on the other hand, things are different.  With Panel display and Display automatic signal posts checked, there are now both barred and unbarred grey signals evident. 68, 64, 62, 75, 71, 65 and 61 have crossbars; the others don't. I wouldn't have expected the unbarred signals to be of the "external" type since they are far from the borders of my area. This kinda upsets what I thought I understood by automatic signals. I vaguely remember Geoff Mayo saying something recently about the Wembley layout designed to represent the actual panel, but can't put my finger on his post right now. (added) To sum up, it appears that designer differences between sims (e.g., Royston vs Wembley) can extend right down to appearance and behaviour of outwardly-appearing "automatic" signals, which makes it difficult for one to assume that the way things work in one sim apply to another. PS I've played Wembley right through now and love it. Last edited: 02/12/2011 at 11:18 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 02/12/2011 at 14:03 #24297 | |
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clive
2799 posts |
" said:Thanks Clive and Ralph.Almost. They are there to simulate "other people's signals". Quote: If so, were you referring to the fact that they always maintain a grey aspect even when Panel display is unchecked (see my pic above)? Or is there some other difference?There's another difference: trains behave differently at red external signals. Quote: In the Royston sim anyway (see above) the automatic signals at entry and exit all have crossbars, yet their behaviour appears to fit the definition of external signal.I've just checked: external signals are shown with the crossbar unless the sim author overrides that. Quote: In Wembley Suburban, on the other hand, things are different.As I said, on WembleySub the bars reflect reality. Well, one version of it: I'm looking at a photo of the signaller's screen with no crossbar on 63, 66, and 67, and also a drivers' route learning guide that does have them! I've gone with the former. Quote: it appears that designer differences between sims (e.g., Royston vs Wembley) can extend right down to appearance and behaviour of outwardly-appearing "automatic" signals, which makes it difficult for one to assume that the way things work in one sim apply to another.The appearance can be changed - if you look at Euston, you'll see just how much it's possible to change the appearance of a signal. But the behaviour can't. Um, reaction to things like "panel signals" can't be altered, but it's possible to code an automatic signal that clears when the line ahead is occupied, or has other unusual behaviour. The definition - for SimSig purposes - of an automatic signal is "can't set routes from it". All else is flexible. Quote: PS I've played Wembley right through now and love it.Glad to hear it. Log in to reply |
| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 03/12/2011 at 14:16 #24353 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks again Clive. That puts it in perspective.
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| Re: Stuck at Kilburn 25/02/2012 at 01:32 #29922 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Following on from this, see here for further discussion re barred/unbarred stems on automatic signals.
Last edited: 25/02/2012 at 01:32 by maxand Log in to reply |