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| Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 06:35 #23857 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
Encountered this in the Royston sim. Don't know if this is special to this sim; if so, please change category to Royston. Just for a bit of fun, I set automatic signal K974 at Litlington LC to ON (red) by hitting the adjacent E button, right in the path of 1C77 proceeding Up towards the crossing. Naturally its driver was not too pleased by this sudden change of aspect and telephoned to tell me so in no uncertain terms. My only reply option to him appears to be "Driver, please continue after speaking to your control." That's funny. I thought I was in control. If I'm not, who is? I talk to the trees, but they don't listen to me... :whistle: Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 06:36 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 06:54 #23859 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:Encountered this in the Royston sim. Don't know if this is special to this sim; if so, please change category to Royston.Wrong control. You are the signalman. Your report to Network Control. The driver speaks to his Control. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 07:09 #23861 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks. I just hope the two get along. 
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| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 08:22 #23867 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
And another thing... As soon as I saw the phrase "Driver, please continue after speaking to your control", I assumed continue meant pass next signal at danger. But nothing happens - the train just sits there at the red light, which I suppose is just as well if there had been a real emergency ahead. The train only moved forward when I cleared K974 (or, I guess, authorized him to PSAD). So it now seems to me that "Driver, please continue after speaking to your control" might really be polite signalese for "I'm just doing my job - talk to your boss instead". Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 08:23 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 08:54 #23870 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
It needs re-wording - I've recently learnt that not all drivers do speak to their control. If there is an implicit "and also pass the signal" then that needs rewording too. Suggestions that cover both of these appreciated.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 08:56 #23871 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
Driver please follow your procedures and await a change of aspect?
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| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 09:48 #23872 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
Quite right geoff, not many TOC/FOCs have the drivers speak to there control after a COA/cat B/C spad, especially on wessex (cant speak for other areas). Down here it is a follows: COA happens, also cat B/C spad if driver going to fast to stop. Driver comes to a stand and contacts the signaller. The signaller then will explain the circumstances to the driver, and if it is the fault of the signaller (i.e Put back in error) he will appoligise. The driver will then be asked if he is fit to continue, (normally yes) the driver will then be given his instrustions to proceed (May involve being told to Pass a signal @ danger, examine the line etc all depending on why the signal has reverted to danger.). The signaller then reports all the details to NR control, who in turn pass it on to the TOC/FOC control, who will normally arrange for the driver to be met at a suitible place to ensure they are OK. the run of this conversation with me and a driver normally goes like this Driver : Hello signaller, driver of 1A11 at signal TA21 SIg: Hello driver of 1A11 at TA21 Driver: Signal TA21 has just reverted from green to red infront of me, and is now showing a red. Sig: have you passed TA21 @ danger driver. Driver: no Sig: OK driver i am sorry, TA21 has reverted to danger due to a track circuit failure, Are you fit to contine driver? Driver: Yes I am fit to continue. Sig: OK driver of 1A11 I am authorising you to pass TA21 signal at danger, Proceed at caution be prepared to stop short of any obsturction, and examine the line between TA21 signal and 'Location x'. Driver: repeats back. and away he goes, well thats the easy version:) Ta Daz Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 09:51 #23876 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks for the real-life heads-up, makes very good sense. COA/cat B/C spad = train ran through a red light over a cat? 
Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 09:55 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 09:57 #23878 | |
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daza7789
59 posts |
lol Spad catogaries, there are 4: Cat A: Driver passed signal at danger when he was given the correct aspect sequences etc and should have been able to stop intime. Cat B: Signal reverted to danger infront of train, due to signaller error/ Techs error ar signalling equipment failure. Cat C: Signal was replaced to danger in an emergency situation and driver did not have time to react (ie obstruction on line etc) Cat D: vehcals without a traction unit or driver ran away and passed signal at danger. Daz Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 10:19 #23881 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:Thanks for the real-life heads-up, makes very good sense.In the UK, when a train passes a signal at danger, it is categorised as to the severity of the incident. There is a listing of the Categories (Cat A to Cat D) on the English Version of Wikipedia at this link. That comes with all the usual caveats about the veracity of information on Wikipedia. (Edit - Information overtaken by Darren's posting). The responsibilities of the UK signaller are outlined in the Rule Book. That is actually a term for a whole set of instructions contained in a number of linked modules available from here. The relevant regulations are as in Section 15 of the General Signalling Regulations. Generically, SimSig should run in accordance with the Rule Book and there are a number of real life signallers, technicians, trainers and instructors who use SimSig and keep things on the straight and narrow, while Geoff is a Chartered Member of the Institute of Railway Signal Engineers. That may help explain why a number of threads get bound up in the desire to have authenticity rather than what may appear more sensible in "game-playing" terms. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 10:23 by postal Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 11:25 #23885 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Again there are historical variations that will affect earlier eras on some sims (1980s or before). In the 1980s, as far as I recall, there was no formal procedure for what's now a cat B/C SPAD (and we knew them as SPDs in those days), although it was most likely Control would want to know about any delays that emerged. (I remember, when visiting Finchley Road shortly after the 1978 reframing which had put the down section signals at the country end of West Hampstead platforms, putting back a bit early on the Down Local, I suspect for a set of empty cars going to Cricklewood sidings. The signalman answered the indignant phone call that ensued with a simple "Sorry driver, trainee in the box, you can carry on". Being ECS near the end of its journey, no delay was ever picked up and no questions were ever asked.) Control, by the way, is the name given to the organisation responsible for co-ordination of working. It was originally introduced by the Midland Railway (late 19th century? or early 20th?) to ease the flow of traffic in the Eat Midlands coalfield (the areas now covered by Trent and Derby). It was so successful that it was adopted by most other companies by the time of grouping in 1923. In its mature form, each Control had four sections. Traffic dealt with wagons, getting details of loads & empties and what was needed, keeping records and monitoring to ensure goods was moving steadily through the area. They would keep in touch with sidings, goods terminals & marshalling yards to catch the early signs of any build-up or shortage and arrange any necessary movements that weren't happening automatically (such as telling Toton Yard how many empties for each colliery to put on each outgoing trip). Motive Power kept an eye on the loco position, liaising with shed foremen as well as yards & such - in steam days, locos needed regular servicing of a kind that diesels don't, and that had to be organised. Traincrew organised drivers/firemen & guards, again in co-operation with shed foremen - once common-user locos came in, Control would have to make sure such things as maximum working hours and breaks were provided for separately from organising the locos themselves. Finally there was Train Control, which liaised with signalmen to regulate the service - decide which trains should be held in which loops, where trains booked slow road should run fast or vice versa, etc. Each group of 4 would deal with a sub-area of the total Control Office, which was run by the Deputy Chief Controller on a shift basis. Of course all Controls also liased with their neighbouring Controls. Passenger rolling stock might occasionally have a controller too, although that was much less common (particularly in those days when there was usually plenty of spare stock - and in many cases carriages would be built for a specific train, even). The degree of authority given to Control varied. On the LMR, as successor to the Midland, Control's authority was absolute. No signalman would run a train out of course without asking Control, unless there were specific instructions about margins that allowed him to. On other lines (the Great Northern was certainly one) the signalmen took the decisions, with Control offering advice and guidance when required. It was noticable that regulation on the Midland was always much more conservative than on the GN (where a bobby would take advantage of any possible margin to slip a freight through - with the driver, sniffing an early finish or time for an extra trip for a bit of overtime, responding appropriately). (Of course in the latter case it helped to know your traincrews - some had an alternative way of making overtime, by missing a distant & thus losing several minutes - and their booked slot in a bottleneck.) With the spread of powerboxes covering large areas, Train Control became somewhat redundant. Signalmen themselves could see an area as large as the Control, but in real time not through telephone reports, and make most of the necessary decisions with time to implement them, where a traditional Control would still be waiting on the phone. Moreover, there was invariably a "regulator" - a signalbox supervisor, with authority to incur delays by running trains out of course where that was the best thing for the service overall. At Willesden, Jim Peplar would put a Freightliner out in front of an all-stations Bletchley (in the days when their maximum speed was 75mph, and I think even after they were uprated to 90mph), knowing that the passenger would take a couple of minutes delay getting to Harrow but that after that the 'liner would have no difficulty getting clear and the passenger had recovery time in its schedule. He would even do that in the middle of the evening rush-hour; it kept things moving and allowed a delayed train to still arrive right time in Liverpool or Glasgow. Thereafter Controls were merged and Controllers' task was much more concerned with emergency co-ordination where an incident required re-routing of traffic away from the box that usually controlled it. Those controllers went to Railtrack (now Network Rail) at privatisation. Traffic Control really vanished when the TOPS system took over. That left Motive Power Control, which became far more concerned with co-ordinating maintenance & suchlike, and Traincrew Control, which of course went to the Train Operating Companies at privatisation. HTIOI Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, BarryM, Josie, jc92 |
| Re: Who's in control? 28/11/2011 at 13:36 #23905 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Beautifully explained Keith, and fascinating to read.
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| Re: Who's in control? 29/11/2011 at 11:04 #23993 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Thank you. I should perhaps have added that Control was often referred to as "The Brains" (I believe there was a popular radio programme called The Brains Trust). Log in to reply |