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| Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 02:08 #25845 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
I'm surprised that a signalling option to "(slow down and) Stop now" is not included. If I order a train to reverse on a track that's only signalled in a forward direction, it can't stop unless (a) I make it reverse past a forward-facing red and then order it to reverse direction again, or (b) it encounters a rearward-facing shunt or other signal set to danger; that stops it. If the Signalling Options menu is meant to model voice communications between signalman and driver, one would have expected Stop to be part of it. Last edited: 20/12/2011 at 02:10 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 02:37 #25846 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Simsig was designed for the 20th century. Trains did not have radio communications. If a driver is stopped at a red signal and the signal does not clear after a 2 minute wait, and he wishes to know the reason for the stoppage, he has to alight from the locomotive and go to the signal and use the telephone attached to the signal. If the signal clears, you will notice a delay for the train to move because the driver is not back on the locomotive. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Prof Jolly |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 04:42 #25849 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Simsig was designed for the 20th century. Trains did not have radio communications. I can't believe that. In at least one article, R/T comms were in use in the UK as early as the 1980s and have improved ever since. Quote: CSR (Cab Secure Radio) was first introduced in the Glasgow area in 1986 to enable driver-only operation of trains. It was later used in the London and Liverpool areas -Wikipedia To keep SimSig from becoming too authentic and over-detailed, why not leave the built-in delays as they are, but simply add commands such as Stop now, assuming r/t did exist on more modern lines. It is, after all, a compromise within reasonable limits. Last edited: 20/12/2011 at 05:08 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 05:12 #25851 | |
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Zoe
254 posts |
" said:To keep SimSig from becoming too authentic What's wrong with having SimSig as authentic as possible? Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 08:52 #25858 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Quote:Yes CSR was in use, however, only certain types of rolling stock are fitted, this mostly being multiple units and only covers specific parts of the country. The same link to wikipedia does state "used on parts of the British railway network". 90% of loco's are fitted with NRN, which, whilst countrywide is a lot less flexible and in certain parts of the country, is not accessible by the signalman, only by the area control, specifically as a means of emergency communication. Therefore the most used method of comms is via the SPT. As a result, "Stop all" or whatever you want to call it is not available. For a signaller in Kent for example to stop all freight trains in his area, he needs to call control and ask for an emergency stop message to be broadcast on the NRN. This is simply a verbal message transmitted from a base station and relys on the NRN radioon the loco working corerectly.Simsig was designed for the 20th century. Trains did not have radio communications. The Reverse train function on SimSig doesn't exist in real life. If a driver is wrongly routed for example, he would stop on the nearest signal, contact the signaller who would state, either "Change ends where you are" or "Proceed to x and change ends" (Actually wording not specific, but along those lines). It's basically a "get out of jail free card that has been added to the sims". Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, Prof Jolly |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 09:03 #25861 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
My previous job only had CSR coverage for the one train an hour from stratford to Broxbourne/Stanstead Airport, but not for all the freights and the 10/15 minute passenger service on the North London Line (NLL). We didn't have it in real life, so SimSig doesn't have it. I guess you *could* say that if the area being simulated has CSR than that could be simulated, but I have no idea how much coding that requires, how high it is on people's wish list, and how much it might affect core code and "break" existing sims (if they were to be refreshed). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Prof Jolly |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 09:32 #25867 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
CSR coverage, as noted, is limited to: (a) certain types of train (EMUs/DMUs) (b) only passenger trains (including empty) (c) geographically small areas of the country Variations exist. NRN is not instant. Noel's description of the method is accurate: I asked a former signaller-trainer sitting opposite me "How long does it take for an emergency stop message sent by NRN to be actioned?". His response was "15 minutes, by which time the loco had already come to a stop at a red signal". In fact, even CSR can take a couple of minutes as the equipment has to broadcast to several different stations in sequence, not in parallel. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Prof Jolly |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 12:23 #25877 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
My question came about after playing an American signalling simulator, on the assumption that reliable 2-way radio communication between cab and signaller was ubiquitous, efficient and something to be taken for granted. I had no idea that what you've just described is the current situation in the UK. Perhaps I've been watching too many American train movies. Thanks for the heads-up. FWIW, further reading turned up: Quote: Network Rail operates several analogue radio networks that support mobile communication applications for drivers and lineside workers which consist of base stations, antenna systems and control equipment. The National Radio Network (NRN) was developed specifically for the operational railway; it provides radio coverage for 98% of the rail network through 500 base stations and 21 radio exchanges. The Radio Electronic Token Block RETB system is based on similar technology as the NRN and ORN but provides data communication for signalling token exchange as well as voice communication. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect19page1/sect19page1.html Noisynoel: Quote: The Reverse train function on SimSig doesn't exist in real life. If a driver is wrongly routed for example, he would stop on the nearest signal, contact the signaller who would state, either "Change ends where you are" or "Proceed to x and change ends" (Actually wording not specific, but along those lines). It's basically a "get out of jail free card that has been added to the sims".That seems a lot truer to life than suddenly telling the driver racing at 60 mph down the wrong route to screech to a halt and reverse, then when he has backtracked sufficiently past the signal at the points that were set wrongly, to screech to another halt and go forward again, just like a toy train! My question really should have read, "Why do we have a stop-and-reverse but no stop?" Well, that's been answered; it's a SimSig convenience, nothing more. However, a couple of issues follow on from this. From the preceding discussion, if NRN is for emergencies only, then it seems implicit that drivers aren't supposed to stop in the middle of nowhere, unless the train breaks down. The procedure seems to be to go from signal to signal, telephone to telephone. On the other hand, with reliable and secure cab radio, would he still stop "on the nearest signal"? My guess is that if a driver found himself just past a signal on the wrong branch, he would not keep going until he reached the next signal but would call and might be told to come to a stop there and then and reverse under instructions to the signal, provided it was safe to do so. Is this permitted to happen? The other issue is that right now, we have a "Reverse direction" command that executes even when the train is moving! Just as in Approach Locking, maybe the way this "Reverse direction" works should be changed so that it is disabled if the train happens to be moving. Thus it would more accurately simulate the train stopping and the driver telephoning in. That would force the sim player to work the train from signal to signal, just as in real life. Then the only thing that would stop the train would be a signal. Last edited: 20/12/2011 at 12:25 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 12:31 #25878 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
Max this may be of interest to you in regards to taking the "wrong un" at a junction. In this case the infamous Hanger Lane Jnc on the District Line.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Prof Jolly, maxand, alan_s, UKTrainMan |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 12:45 #25880 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:My guess is that if a driver found himself just past a signal on the wrong branch, he would not keep going until he reached the next signal but would call and might be told to come to a stop there and then and reverse under instructions to the signal, provided it was safe to do so. Is this permitted to happen?He would come to a stop immediately, and THEN call the signaller (not the other way around). Most drivers have the signal box telephone numbers so they can call the signaller, however I don't think they're allowed to exchange safety critical information over a mobile phone. If there's no mobile coverage, NRN or CSR the driver is likely to walk to the closest signal in order to use the SPT. The signaller can authorise the driver reverse, however I believe the driver must drive from the leading cab. (Not sure how that works with loco hauled, I guess the guard has to provide hand signals?) FF Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Prof Jolly |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 12:46 #25881 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Quote:maybe the way this "Reverse direction" works should be changed so that it is disabled if the train happens to be moving.I agree completely FF Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 13:38 #25885 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:Quote:As I recall, that used to happen on older Sims.maybe the way this "Reverse direction" works should be changed so that it is disabled if the train happens to be moving.I agree completely "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 14:05 #25886 | |
dmaze
88 posts |
" said:My question came about after playing an American signalling simulator(Which? And surely you mean "dispatching", because "signal" isn't a verb over here? :-) I haven't found anything else quite like SimSig, honestly.) Quote: Perhaps I've been watching too many American train movies.I'll note _Unstoppable_ as recent, big-budget, and somewhat cringe-worthy...the actual events depicted do apparently mirror a real-world event, but in the big dispatching room, the troubled train shows up as occupying a good couple dozen signal blocks, putting it at about 20 miles long (!). Somewhat more topically, I'll also note that the Hollywood dispatchers were unable to just press F2 and find out how fast the train was going, but also apparently couldn't tell more-or-less 15 mph from more-or-less 60 mph based on how quickly it was passing signals. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 14:24 #25887 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
" said:Quote:same heremaybe the way this "Reverse direction" works should be changed so that it is disabled if the train happens to be moving.I agree completely "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 20/12/2011 at 15:29 #25891 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:" said:Unfortunately that wasn't the case a years ago when there was a request from a large number of people to put it in. Subsequent changes added a prompt for confirmation if a train is moving (not if it's stopped). Just shows you can't please all the people all the time.Quote:same heremaybe the way this "Reverse direction" works should be changed so that it is disabled if the train happens to be moving.I agree completely As with most F2 functions, it's a fallback to where something's gone wrong in the sim, along the lines of "remove train". In real life probably 99.9% of the time a driver will know he's going wrong and stop by himself (bearing in mind the signaller will also have to be wrong to achieve the situation in the first place - double failure); the sim doesn't have that knowledge. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 05:25 #25931 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
headshot119's link (post 8) is most interesting. Big thanks. The crux of the matter seems to be that if a signal (or signalman) presents a misdirection to the driver, it becomes the driver's fault if he accepts it, i.e., he should know his routes well enough to stop before accepting, say, a feather telling him to take the wrong branch. I get plenty of phone calls from drivers saying they're waiting at a red, but can't recall any saying "Hey, this isn't my usual route." before trundling off in the wrong direction. Maybe it requires too much AI to anticipate this. After all, this presupposes knowledge of all acceptable routes, if there are more than one. However, we already have a message "Waiting for correct route to be set" in the Train List. By the time I notice it, the relevant train is usually way off course! (It often comes as the result of a divide when I've sent the wrong half of the train off, not being able to tell which end goes in which direction, even after studying the individual timetables.) Last edited: 21/12/2011 at 06:23 by maxand Reason: rewrote post Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 07:44 #25937 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:I get plenty of phone calls from drivers saying they're waiting at a red, but can't recall any saying "Hey, this isn't my usual route." before trundling off in the wrong direction.Simulated drivers won't complain about being sent on an unusual but valid route, but will complain about being sent on the wrong route. For example, in Wembley Suburban, try sending a train to Kensal Green Junction when it's booked to Camden, or vice versa. That feature's been in there since before I started playing SimSig. You should only get the "waiting for correct route to be set" in F2 after such a phone call (or, possibly, in the few seconds before the call is made). Go back and try again. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 07:49 #25938 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
I did manage to send a freight train from Avonmouth directly through Bristol Parkway to Hullavington accidentally, instead of down Filton bank and round Rhubarb curve through Bath without a complaint from the driver, but I guess it didn't matter as he didn't have any stations to call at, and those lines rejoin before Swindon so he could still reach his final destination! (which was Didcot Power Stn, I believe) Alan Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 08:50 #25944 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:headshot119's link (post 8) is most interesting. Big thanks. The crux of the matter seems to be that if a signal (or signalman) presents a misdirection to the driver, it becomes the driver's fault if he accepts it, i.e., he should know his routes well enough to stop before accepting, say, a feather telling him to take the wrong branch.If the driver accepts a wrong route and would otherwise have been able to stop before taking it, then both the signaller and driver become at fault. " said: I get plenty of phone calls from drivers saying they're waiting at a red, but can't recall any saying "Hey, this isn't my usual route." before trundling off in the wrong direction.No, you'll get a telephone call first. However, it does rely on that particular route being specifically barred for a train trying to reach a particular location. It cannot cope with all possible eventualities - complex moves involving reversing being one - and older sims had less flexibility than newer sims in defining that data. Older sims only had a "don't take this route if one of the next 3 (?) locations is X" whereas newer sims have things like "don't take this route if you terminate at X" and "don't take this route if the immediate next (as opposed to any subsequent) location is X". SimSig Boss Last edited: 21/12/2011 at 08:50 by GeoffM Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 10:26 #25953 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:This does vary from sim to sim, depending (I understand) on how it has been coded. For example, in the Edinburgh sim it's possible to send a Newcraighall train down the main line at Portobello Jn without the driver complaining. Log in to reply |
| Re: Why no signalling option to Stop Now? 21/12/2011 at 11:55 #25962 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks again for the heads-up, Geoff.
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