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| Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 12:55 #27445 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
One of the less endearing features of the Exeter sim (and, I gather, South Humberside too) is the number of manually operated level crossings that fall to us to need constant checking. It seems like less than a level playing field to have to guess when to lower them and even less when remembering to raise them. Heck, it might only be a software game, but this aspect of it is hardly confidence-building. So, what can be done to make life a bit easier for signalpersons working under such conditions? This matter has of course already been raised: Level Crossing (penalty) Im having real problems with level crossings As I see it, one needs to be aware of three factors: 1) The optimum time to lower the barriers in front of an approaching train; 2) Not forgetting to raise the barriers afterwards; 3) The timeouts applying before one of two penalties strikes - a) "barriers down with no train approaching" and b) "excessive delay to road users". On thinking about it, it seems we players are penalized a bit more than real signallers. I mean, would a real signaller have his pay docked by a certain amount every time a barrier stays down a bit too long? I hardly think so. And I guess real signallers would have a pretty clear idea as to how long barriers can be left down, train or no train. There must be a rule book of sorts. On the other hand, we simmers don't even get a warning that if we don't raise barriers by a certain time, the dreaded penalty message will appear. On the other hand, these lucky signallers have a big panel display so that simply by looking up they can instantly glance at any part of their area to see which trains have passed their LCs, etc. As for me, while I'm fiddling with an unexpected problem at Paignton LC (Exeter), I suddenly get reminded that, way offscreen at Crediton, the train that took half an hour to get to Crediton LC has long gone and the motorists are honking their horns. There has to be a way to make this mess more pleasurable. In the first of the two threads above, Peter Bennet wrote: Quote: For info the respective times are no train 720s and with train 900s This apparently applies to all sims created by him, and was supposed to have made its way into all the relevant manuals, but I haven't yet found it in the one for Exeter. I'd also like to know whether, in sims created by others, it's possible to look up an Option somewhere to tell us what the timeouts of the individual LCs are, rather than keep us guessing. But I bet there isn't one. Solution 1. I think if I was a real-life signaller I would like to see a real warning message pop up before I get hit with a penalty. (That's why I posted this here.) That seems much fairer, if not prototypic, but then penalties aren't prototypic either IMO. A message that would give me, say, 15-30 seconds to raise a barrier manually. Solution 2. While waiting for solution 1, I cut up some little slips of paper, each with the name of a LC, and arranged them horizontally in a row on the vacant space above the keyboard on my laptop, i.e., between the keyboard and the hinged screen. When I clear Pinhoe LC, for example, I also slide the Pinhoe slip down so it is below the others. That instantly reminds me which of them is still down. On raising the barriers, I push it back up level with the rest. Hope this idea helps some of you. Solution 3. Crude and effective as solution 2 is, it still relies on guesswork - guessing the time. Even better would be a little set of screen countdown timers, configured to each crossing, with some distant early warning built in showing which ones are active and how much time is left. They would have to be recalibrated for each sim speed, but if you enjoy playing a particular sim and intend to return to it at some time in the future, the effort in setting them up would be well rewarded. Last edited: 16/01/2012 at 12:58 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 13:46 #27453 | |
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birchy74
151 posts |
Or solution 4 : Just keep practising. Practice makes perfect as they say
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| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 13:52 #27455 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
The majority of crossings (all of them on Exeter?) have auto-raise, which is particularly helpful - once you press 'crossing clear', as long as auto-raise is enabled (on the crossing controls), you can go away and concentrate on something else, safe in the knowledge that the barriers will rise behind the train. Some crossings in some sims don't have auto-raise, because that crossing doesn't have it in reality. Usually this is because, in reality, it's worked from a small (often mechanical) signal box located adjacent to the crossing - the passing train is enough of a hint that the barriers need to be raised! Personally I disagree that they should be simulated like this in Simsig (if the crossing was controlled from a PSB or IECC, it'd almost certainly have an auto-raise facility), but I can live with it as long as I remember to keep an eye on the train clearing the crossing. The other minor challenge is, when you've turned auto-raise off - for example, when you need to set up a conflicting route as soon as the first train has passed, and don't want the barriers to rise in between - remembering to turn it back on as soon as you can! That leaves the challenge of lowering them in time. In reality there'll be some 'method' (written or otherwise) to determine when to start the crossing sequence (when track circuit X occupies, two minutes after receiving TES from Y (in AB land) or as soon as the AHB at Z strikes in, for example), sometimes assisted by an annunciator to wake you up when the train reaches a certain point (would be a welcome addition on Simsig!). Perhaps one project for the Wiki would be to try and put some guidance, from experience, on there to suggest when the optimum time is to start lowering the barriers. That might differ between a non-stopping train (where you'd normally want to press 'crossing clear' before the train reaches the first non-green signal) and a stopping train (where you might leave it until the train's in the platform, or at least closely approaching it) - West Holmes box at Lincoln had two annunciators for Down trains approaching from Swinderby (to allow him to start the sequence for Boultham CCTV barriers); the Signalman would act on the first for a non-stopping (at Hykeham) train, but wait for the second if the train was stopping. Finally, having started the sequence, you then need to come back to press 'crossing clear' at some point. Newer sims (usually?) assist by displaying a message (optional?) when the barriers are lowered - so at least you haven't got to watch the crossing itself closely throughout the sequence. Sometimes penalties are unavoidable (for "excessive delay to road users" at least), if you've got a load of trains at once without an opportunity to raise the barriers between - the alternative would be to delay the trains and get penalised that way instead! Hope that's some help, Tom Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 14:20 #27460 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
Unless there are other reasons (eg station stops) a good starting point is to make sure the train sees greens all the way. Try lowering barriers when the train has just the one green, you have a good chance of clearing the crossing in time for the train's next cautionary to step up to green before it reaches it (Edit: ARS usually aims to keep 2 greens). Another trick, especially for crossings like at Topsham, is to look at the due time adjusted for lateness and put a sticky there, with that time less a couple of minutes as a reminder. Drop the barriers at that time, and you won't be far out. At Exeter Red Cow, dropping the barriers the minute before a train is due to TRTS works well for me. As has been mentioned before, slowly scanning (taking from 1 to 2 minutes) from one end of a sim to the other, checking on each train works well. Usually you can drop barriers on one pass, clear them the next pass, and raise 1 or 2 passes later. The key is to work methodically, and not to get too transfixed sorting out one train. Do a quick check of the others, then sort the problem, after all if it's delayed, another minute won't be much in the scheme of things. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 16/01/2012 at 14:21 by AndyG Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 14:24 #27461 | |
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Zoe
254 posts |
" said:At Exeter Red Cow, dropping the barriers the minute before a train is due to TRTS works well for me. From what I remember at Exeter they used to press the TRTS up to two minutes before the train was due to depart. Last edited: 16/01/2012 at 14:37 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 15:05 #27463 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:" said:They might well do in real life, but not in SimSigland.At Exeter Red Cow, dropping the barriers the minute before a train is due to TRTS works well for me. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 15:05 #27464 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:" said:At Exeter Red Cow, dropping the barriers the minute before a train is due to TRTS works well for me. Surely that's one of the main purposes of TRTS - to avoid the need to drop the barriers (etc.) before you know that it's going to be ready to depart promptly? If you need to lower the barriers before TRTS, that suggests to me that TRTS isn't being given early enough - for example, so that you can determine whether you've got time to sneak a conflicting move across first. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 15:09 #27465 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:Surely that's one of the main purposes of TRTS - to avoid the need to drop the barriers (etc.) before you know that it's going to be ready to depart promptly? If you need to lower the barriers before TRTS, that suggests to me that TRTS isn't being given early enough - for example, so that you can determine whether you've got time to sneak a conflicting move across first. But I don't set the route until TRTS is given, keep your options open. You can always immediately raise them, or sneak that other movement across. I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 15:16 #27466 | |
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Zoe
254 posts |
" said:Surely that's one of the main purposes of TRTS - to avoid the need to drop the barriers (etc.) before you know that it's going to be ready to depart promptly? If you need to lower the barriers before TRTS, that suggests to me that TRTS isn't being given early enough - for example, so that you can determine whether you've got time to sneak a conflicting move across first. In the real world you'd want the barriers down and the route set at least 30-40 seconds before the train is due to depart so that the platform staff can dispatch it on time. That's why at Exeter I have seen it pressed up to two minutes before the train is due to depart. Last edited: 16/01/2012 at 15:18 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 15:26 #27467 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
" said:" said:Surely that's one of the main purposes of TRTS - to avoid the need to drop the barriers (etc.) before you know that it's going to be ready to depart promptly? If you need to lower the barriers before TRTS, that suggests to me that TRTS isn't being given early enough - for example, so that you can determine whether you've got time to sneak a conflicting move across first. Fair enough - but if you only receive TRTS say 30 seconds before departure, it's not a great deal of use for getting other movements across. If you get it two minutes before, that gives any conflicting moves time to get clear; 30 seconds before, and if you've already pulled off for the other move (Sod's law says you'll receive TRTS the moment the other signal comes off!), it's then going to delay the departure. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 17:08 #27472 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:
Oops- that slipped through when I re-wrote the manual. Now added in the 'Level Crossings' section. Generally, I lower barriers when the next signal in front of a train is the last green signal before the crossing- this means they're down before the train passes the yellow signal, so the train won't lose too much, if any, speed. Level crossings are one of those things that are got right with experience- give it a chance and remember what works and what doesn't. I also agree with other comments to scan accross the area every 1-2 sim minutes, this allows you to spot trains coming up to crossings. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 16/01/2012 at 17:17 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 17:34 #27475 | |
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delticfan
476 posts |
Level crossings on Exeter always catch me out, especially Paignton and Topsham for some reason. It's made things slightly easier now that we can permanently lower Silk Mill, but I must remember to watch the others. Mal. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 17:37 #27476 | |
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WesternChampion
173 posts 
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I play Gloucester a lot and this has just two level crossings that require the barriers to be manually operated. Horton Road must be manually raised and operated whereas Old Ends has an auto button for raising the barriers after a train has passed but the barriers must be lowered manually. To help you, you get a message to let you know that a train is approaching Old Ends but need to use your judgement as to when to lower the barriers. Lower them straight away for a slow freight and you get a penalty. Leave it too late and you delay a fast train. Also, you have to press a second button to confirm the crossing is clear before the signals will clear. Forget to do this and you get both a penalty and a train stopped at a red signal! The advice above about scanning the whole sim every minute or two should help to avoid this but sometimes you get involved with a complex run-round situation at Gloucester or attaching a banking loco at Bromsgrove. It does get better with experience :cheer: With the Horton Road crossing trains arriving from Cheltenham or Standish Junction are approach controlled so it's usually a question of waiting for them to approach the last TC before Barnwood or Gloucester Yard junctions before dropping the barriers. For trains leaving Gloucester across the crossing, I have a different approach. I used to lower the barriers 1 minute before the scheduled departure time to facilitate a quick get away but the (simulated) platform staff at Gloucester are quite often tardy in getting the train away so you get a penalty for having the barriers down without a train. Nowadays I wait for TRTS from Platforms 1 and 4 before lowering the barriers. Trains from P2 can be signalled away from the platform and the barriers lowered as soon as you get notification that the train has departed. Exeter has quite a few manual crossings, often controlled in reality by local boxes, whose barriers must be manually raised and lowered. It can be exasperating to be penalised for forgetting to raise the crossings afterwards but again its a question of practice and frequent monitoring. If you don't like level crossings, then there are sims without them, but they often have their own challenges - Kings Cross for example! Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 16/01/2012 at 23:48 #27499 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
As others have already said, practise makes perfect. Personally, if I'm not sure when to lower the barriers then I will follow how ARS works and lower them once the train is only occupying the track circuit next to (or associated with) the 2nd to last green signal. After doing so, if I'm not busy with other trains, then I may monitor the situation to 'see how it goes', and if needed I'll adjust when I begin the lower procedure. If the crossing is right next to a station, meaning that the platform starter signal (if applicable) won't clear until the crossing is clear, then I will usually lower the barriers 1 minute before departure time, which usually works for me. Generally speaking I rarely have a problem by doing this like this, so I recommend it!
Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 05:05 by UKTrainMan Reason: adding 3rd sentence Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 04:02 #27503 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Big thanks for the feedback. Interesting to see how others cope with this problem.
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| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 10:06 #27529 | |
postal
5265 posts
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" said:Big thanks for the feedback. Interesting to see how others cope with this problem.Interesting point that raises a question about the whole "SimSig" thing (and please accept that this is not directed at any posters in this thread or in this Forum but is a discussion point). I have many times been as frustrated as Maxand has about the LCs and prayed for some sort of easy answer as is postulated in the original posting. However, in reality I personally would not be comfortable with that sort of answer because I don't see the LC thing, for example, as a "problem" as some others do. The reasoning behind that is that the developer has written a sim and that sim comes with an implicit level of difficulty. To operate the sim as the developer wishes it to be operated, you have to develop the necessary skills and abilities to handle that sim and its "problems". If you cannot do that, then the sim is too difficult to handle at the current level of your competence and you need to sharpen up before trying again. That leads to the wider area where suggestions are made which would add post-production optional extras to make it easier but which users would not need to invoke. This is justified by the comment that you could run without the extras so it wouldn't affect you, but others could have an easier ride. Again my personal view is that doing something like that after the developer has written the sim is affecting the integrity of the developer's work; the developer has a personal view about how the work should be operated and I think that should be respected. If the developer wants to write in any methods to make the sim easier to operate then that is a different matter as that is part of the developer setting up an implicit level of complexity and difficulty/ease of operation. Only personal points, but I guess from Forum comments that a number of other posters have similar views. As we are getting into the area of instincts and beliefs rather than rational argument, that means that comments affecting these areas are always going to generate a lot more heat than light (and may be why people from the "rational" end like Maxand - no personal disrespect intended) are surprised and put on the defensive by what they perceive as Luddite and reactionary comments to a sensible and easily applicable change. The main thing is that we all enjoy what we have and all remember that others use SimSig in different ways and with different outlooks, so there is no right or wrong; there is room for suggestions, but there is also room for people who think the suggestions may be leading in the wrong direction. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 12:30 #27535 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
As South Humberside was mentioned, I'll pass a sim specific comment at this point. There were a number of issues in the original release related to level crossings, auto lowering points (in modes that support it), and penalty messages. This was largely due to either close proximity of junctions, or incorrect striking points to give a clear run on green signals (although at present this is insignificant as simisg only does emergency brake applications for trains at the last moment before a red signal)! These are being worked on (crossing by crossing), and the next release will hopefully be much better and more user friendly.
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 12:37 #27536 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
Good points for thought there postal. Another issue that would arise with optional extras to simplify matters is at what level do you pitch them/how easy do you make it. Using the level crossing example, how many different permutations do we currently have of whether they can or always will auto-lower, auto-raise, whether routes can be set when the crossing is not lowered, notifications given, etc. - at the simplest extreme you might as well not have the LC there, so the developer would need to decide how much simpler and in what way the options would apply. However, in some situations it might also be the case that the developer would not mind putting some form of optional simplifications in if it was possible, but I guess that the core code might actually need to be altered to permit that so it is more than just the developer's choice. We mustn't forget that there are already optional simplifications available in some sims, like TORR (which I'm afraid I am not hardcore or mad enough to try to operate without, realistic or not - I see it as a necessary compromise to enable me to control an area that would normally be covered by 4 or more people) and ACI which I may be wrong but I think is included in some sims where it is not prototypical. IIRC TORR first became optional in Kurt's Trent & Sheffield sims. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 12:44 #27540 | |
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GB
64 posts |
I haven't played a SimSig simulation that has crossing penalties for a while so for give me if I am wrong but the penalty doesn't take into account other trains in the area that haven't reached what would be the strike in point (the place you would get the call and start the lowering process if they were not already lowered) but are too close to raise the barriers and then lower and clear them again. This is the thing that irritates me about the penalty....that and its not prototypical unless its an extreme case as I have mentioned many times
Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 12:47 by GB Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 12:56 #27543 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:.... to give a clear run on green signals (although at present this is insignificant as simisg only does emergency brake applications for trains at the last moment before a red signal)!Not quite true, trains do slow down in response to cautionary aspects (typically 40mph at a single yellow). Apart from a couple of specific abnormal eventss, the train dynamics appear to be reasonably realistic (and that's speaking as an applied mathematician who appreciates the complexity of it all). I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 13:09 #27545 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:On thinking about it, it seems we players are penalized a bit more than real signallers. I mean, would a real signaller have his pay docked by a certain amount every time a barrier stays down a bit too long? I hardly think so.Since I'm the one who added the penalties, perhaps I should explain the issue. In early sims, there were no such penalties. As a result, there was nothing stopping you just leaving the barriers down for ever and forgetting about the crossing entirely. This isn't prototypical: while a signaller might not get penalized every time they left a barrier down by a certain length of time, they would be facing a Form 1 if they constantly left the roads blocked for no good reason. Bear in mind that there are laws about this. So there was a need for a way to encourage SimSig players to treat the level crossing properly rather than forgetting about them. The best idea I could come up with was the penalty - think of it as a small fraction of a Form 1. The penalties should be configured so that they won't affect normal play but will hurt the lazy player. Given that in typical modern signalling areas, a train is passing a signal every minute or so, 5 minutes without a train is probably sufficient to give you time to set the route well ahead of the train. The other penalty - barriers down too long whether or not there's a train - is intended for situations where you could get so many trains in a row that the normal penalty isn't realistic. Old-timers will probably be thinking of Tallington when they read this. If you think that the timing for a particular crossing is unreasonable, you need to bring it up in the specific simulation area of the forum. Quote: I'd also like to know whether, in sims created by others, it's possible to look up an Option somewhere to tell us what the timeouts of the individual LCs are,There isn't. There are lots of other things that you can't look up either (e.g. the timeouts on overlaps or the approach control timings of signals). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, maxand, alan_s |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 16:18 #27555 | |
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Aurora
183 posts |
" said:The majority of crossings (all of them on Exeter?) have auto-raise, which is particularly helpful The major ones have auto (including Silk Mill, Red Cow and Stoke Cannon) while the smaller ones don't have auto (incl. Paignton, Crediton, Pinhoe, Topsham) so with those you have to keep track. Nil. Last edited: 18/01/2012 at 00:50 by Aurora Reason: Not sure where I got Coniton and Silk Road from :s Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 16:32 #27557 | |
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Aurora
183 posts |
" said:That leaves the challenge of lowering them in time. In reality there'll be some 'method' (written or otherwise) to determine when to start the crossing sequence (when track circuit X occupies, two minutes after receiving TES from Y (in AB land) or as soon as the AHB at Z strikes in, for example), sometimes assisted by an annunciator to wake you up when the train reaches a certain point (would be a welcome addition on Simsig!). Perhaps one project for the Wiki would be to try and put some guidance, from experience, on there to suggest when the optimum time is to start lowering the barriers. That might differ between a non-stopping train (where you'd normally want to press 'crossing clear' before the train reaches the first non-green signal) and a stopping train. With me it depends. With Stoke Cannon, I tend to raise them roughly 2-3 signals before (though beware that slow one going into Riverside mid-morning, open more than one to two signals before and you may likely be caught). With the ones right after stations (such as Red Cow), as long as the train will be departing soon after arrival at Exeter St Davids I'll raise when the train is arriving on the platform. With the crossing right before Paignton, I'll raise when it's roughly halfway with the previous station. Nil. Last edited: 17/01/2012 at 16:36 by Aurora Reason: The one 'between Tiv and Cowley Bdg' is Stoke Cannon. Log in to reply |
| Re: Avoiding level crossing penalties 17/01/2012 at 17:52 #27562 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Also, and I've said this already recently, with scrolly you can open a second+ view and shrink it down to keep an eye on any crossings. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |