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How does the Neck Siding work?

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Liverpool Lime Street > How does the Neck Siding work?

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 08/02/2012 at 14:01 #29113
AndyG
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'Neck' is probably to describe its location rather than function, ie it's at the station neck. Just a variation on Up siding, or down sidings, could equally well have been centre siding, but that's what they called it I guess some 160 years ago so we can't check with the station developer.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 08/02/2012 at 14:06 #29114
Danny252
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1461 posts
Neck siding, headshunt, station throat - the theme seems quite obvious...
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 08/02/2012 at 18:09 #29146
clive
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2789 posts
" said:
I'd suggest that perhaps you don't get too hung up on the name and just accept that that is what it's called and probably has been for 100 years.
Let me quote from "Light Relief", by Jack Warland.

Quote:

As an example, there are, or were, 52 sidings in Clapham Junction Yard. Each one, with a single exception, had its own name - "Thro the Puzzles", "Round the Maze", "Down the Bend", "Back of the Shed" (which incidentally was nowhere near any shed), and "Beside the Fence" (the fence was taken down years before), to name but a few.
[...]
I recall shunting at Fremington and being told to place three wagons "back of the lake". Not wanting to appear ignorant, I walked over the entire yard looking for a stream, river or ditch which could conceivably be called a lake, but there was nothing - as the station was situated on a slight hill, this was understandable! there was little else I could do but ask "Where's back of the lake?".
I was shown the siding by a sniggering head shunter. Needless to say there wa no water whatsoever anywhere near.
"How come it's called back of the lake?" I asked.
"Ah", says my informant, "when it rains there's always a big puddle there."
[...]
I was told to place a "Conflat" wagon "through the shed". I wondered why, as Conflats were generally used to load containers or vehicles, and one could do neither in a goods shed. Ah, I thought, perhaps the clue lies in the words "through the shed" - perhaps they want the wagon pushed through the shed and out the other side for loading. I checked, and sure enough the siding continued through the shed and for several wagon lengths beyond. So no problem - I placed the "flat" there. Wrong! As soon as the freight train had departed, and of course our shunting engine along with it, there was a shout of "Where's that ruddy conflat?" (only not quite as politely as that).
"Through the shed as you asked," I replied.
"Nonsense," says the shunter (or words to that effect) "it's not". Then, in amazement, he saw it to the rear of the goods shed. "You've put the ruddy thing on the shed road - I said through the shed."
"What the heck do you reckon that is then if it's not through the shed?" I asked.
He then showed me, with a great deal of condescension, where they had wanted the "flat" placed - right under the yard crane!
"How was I expected to know?" I asked. "Logic says there's the shed, the siding goes through - hence 'through the shed'. Where you wanted it is surely known as 'crane road' or 'under the crane'?"
"Not at Bere Alston," says the shunter. "There was once an old shed a few wagon lengths in front of the crane, hence 'through the shed'."
The fact that the shed had been gone for 50-odd years before I worked there didn't come into it.

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 08/02/2012 at 18:50 #29149
Peter Bennet
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" said:
" said:
I'd suggest that perhaps you don't get too hung up on the name and just accept that that is what it's called and probably has been for 100 years.
Let me quote from "Light Relief", by Jack Warland.

Quote:

As an example, there are, or were, 52 sidings in Clapham Junction Yard. Each one, with a single exception, had its own name - "Thro the Puzzles", "Round the Maze", "Down the Bend", "Back of the Shed" (which incidentally was nowhere near any shed), and "Beside the Fence" (the fence was taken down years before), to name but a few.
[...]
I recall shunting at Fremington and being told to place three wagons "back of the lake". Not wanting to appear ignorant, I walked over the entire yard looking for a stream, river or ditch which could conceivably be called a lake, but there was nothing - as the station was situated on a slight hill, this was understandable! there was little else I could do but ask "Where's back of the lake?".
I was shown the siding by a sniggering head shunter. Needless to say there wa no water whatsoever anywhere near.
"How come it's called back of the lake?" I asked.
"Ah", says my informant, "when it rains there's always a big puddle there."
[...]
I was told to place a "Conflat" wagon "through the shed". I wondered why, as Conflats were generally used to load containers or vehicles, and one could do neither in a goods shed. Ah, I thought, perhaps the clue lies in the words "through the shed" - perhaps they want the wagon pushed through the shed and out the other side for loading. I checked, and sure enough the siding continued through the shed and for several wagon lengths beyond. So no problem - I placed the "flat" there. Wrong! As soon as the freight train had departed, and of course our shunting engine along with it, there was a shout of "Where's that ruddy conflat?" (only not quite as politely as that).
"Through the shed as you asked," I replied.
"Nonsense," says the shunter (or words to that effect) "it's not". Then, in amazement, he saw it to the rear of the goods shed. "You've put the ruddy thing on the shed road - I said through the shed."
"What the heck do you reckon that is then if it's not through the shed?" I asked.
He then showed me, with a great deal of condescension, where they had wanted the "flat" placed - right under the yard crane!
"How was I expected to know?" I asked. "Logic says there's the shed, the siding goes through - hence 'through the shed'. Where you wanted it is surely known as 'crane road' or 'under the crane'?"
"Not at Bere Alston," says the shunter. "There was once an old shed a few wagon lengths in front of the crane, hence 'through the shed'."
The fact that the shed had been gone for 50-odd years before I worked there didn't come into it.
Brilliant!

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 00:33 #29170
UKTrainMan
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1803 posts
Post #28 doesn't just deserve a simple click on a 'Thank You' button.

THANK YOU CLIVE!

(credit to Heashot119 for the inspiration for this post)

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 09/02/2012 at 00:33 by UKTrainMan
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 01:56 #29172
nroberts
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227 posts
Clive,

Just goes to show that what one sometimes takes for granted is quite different from what's expected.

<Getting of the floor after falling out of my chair while reading>
Excellent stuff

Thanks,

NR

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 02:03 #29173
Quizman
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276 posts
Quote:
Let me quote from "Light Relief", by Jack Warland.
Is this is a book/magazine article, if so would love to read it. Any idea of year, publisher etc....?

Last edited: 09/02/2012 at 02:24 by AndyG
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 02:09 #29174
maxand
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1637 posts
Let me add my thanks to Clive's post too. Makes SimSig a whole lot more understandable.
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 08:33 #29182
clive
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2789 posts
" said:
Quote:
Let me quote from "Light Relief", by Jack Warland.
Is this is a book/magazine article, if so would love to read it. Any idea of year, publisher etc....?
Book. 185260381X.

My favourite single tale is the time that four trains all left from the same station at the same time, all along single lines, all with the wrong token! What's more, in two cases the line used Tyers Number 3s, which don't allow the token to be replaced in the machine at the originating station.

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 10:31 #29184
kbarber
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1742 posts
" said:
" said:
I'd suggest that perhaps you don't get too hung up on the name and just accept that that is what it's called and probably has been for 100 years.
Let me quote from "Light Relief", by Jack Warland.

Quote:

As an example, there are, or were, 52 sidings in Clapham Junction Yard. Each one, with a single exception, had its own name - "Thro the Puzzles", "Round the Maze", "Down the Bend", "Back of the Shed" (which incidentally was nowhere near any shed), and "Beside the Fence" (the fence was taken down years before), to name but a few.
[...]
I recall shunting at Fremington and being told to place three wagons "back of the lake". Not wanting to appear ignorant, I walked over the entire yard looking for a stream, river or ditch which could conceivably be called a lake, but there was nothing - as the station was situated on a slight hill, this was understandable! there was little else I could do but ask "Where's back of the lake?".
I was shown the siding by a sniggering head shunter. Needless to say there wa no water whatsoever anywhere near.
"How come it's called back of the lake?" I asked.
"Ah", says my informant, "when it rains there's always a big puddle there."
[...]
I was told to place a "Conflat" wagon "through the shed". I wondered why, as Conflats were generally used to load containers or vehicles, and one could do neither in a goods shed. Ah, I thought, perhaps the clue lies in the words "through the shed" - perhaps they want the wagon pushed through the shed and out the other side for loading. I checked, and sure enough the siding continued through the shed and for several wagon lengths beyond. So no problem - I placed the "flat" there. Wrong! As soon as the freight train had departed, and of course our shunting engine along with it, there was a shout of "Where's that ruddy conflat?" (only not quite as politely as that).
"Through the shed as you asked," I replied.
"Nonsense," says the shunter (or words to that effect) "it's not". Then, in amazement, he saw it to the rear of the goods shed. "You've put the ruddy thing on the shed road - I said through the shed."
"What the heck do you reckon that is then if it's not through the shed?" I asked.
He then showed me, with a great deal of condescension, where they had wanted the "flat" placed - right under the yard crane!
"How was I expected to know?" I asked. "Logic says there's the shed, the siding goes through - hence 'through the shed'. Where you wanted it is surely known as 'crane road' or 'under the crane'?"
"Not at Bere Alston," says the shunter. "There was once an old shed a few wagon lengths in front of the crane, hence 'through the shed'."
The fact that the shed had been gone for 50-odd years before I worked there didn't come into it.

To which I'd add one Clive has become very familiar with (if not by name); the siding behind signal 48 (bottom of the screen, opposite the ends of platforms 4/5) was "the back of the box". And indeed the base of the 1952 box is still there to this day, on the opposite side to the box Clive has simulated...

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 09/02/2012 at 14:23 #29205
clive
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2789 posts
" said:

To which I'd add one Clive has become very familiar with (if not by name); the siding behind signal 48 (bottom of the screen, opposite the ends of platforms 4/5) was "the back of the box". And indeed the base of the 1952 box is still there to this day, on the opposite side to the box Clive has simulated...
Then there was Port Arthur, and wasn't there another name used at Euston?

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 10/02/2012 at 09:50 #29247
kbarber
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" said:
" said:

To which I'd add one Clive has become very familiar with (if not by name); the siding behind signal 48 (bottom of the screen, opposite the ends of platforms 4/5) was "the back of the box". And indeed the base of the 1952 box is still there to this day, on the opposite side to the box Clive has simulated...
Then there was Port Arthur, and wasn't there another name used at Euston?

Don't go confusing us Clive!

(I do know where Port Arthur is by the way, a friend of mine (Graham F) was a signalman at Euston in the '80s.)

Is the other name you're alluding to The Rat Hole?

All goes to show the locals create their own names for things, often a lot briefer then the official name (or perhaps easier understood in a noisy environment).

Incidentally, some of these names have historical resonances (like Port Arthur - and I believe there were a number of places that had Klondikes, either yards or sidings), which may offer clues as to the development of a location.

Last edited: 10/02/2012 at 09:51 by kbarber
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 23/02/2012 at 22:49 #29857
maxand
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1637 posts
Just a quick one.

I can see that wide-to-gauge points are usually found protecting sidings, but in which direction do they work?





Do they protect trains on a main line from running into sidings at high speed, do they protect a train within a siding from straying onto the main line, or both? I can't find a definitive answer.

In the case of a single catch point, such as at Royston, its purpose seems to be to prevent trains moving (rolling?) Down (left to right) into the station (against the direction of signalling, which is Up), so maybe if one considers a w-t-g point as being equivalent to a pair of catch points, maybe they stop trains on the "stem" of the Y moving "upward" - which translates as moving out of the siding onto the main line.


Last edited: 23/02/2012 at 22:54 by maxand
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 23/02/2012 at 22:54 #29858
jc92
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theyre purpose is as per trap/catch points, prevent an authorised movement from a siding, essentially one on each rail, rather than on a single rail.

they open inwards (the ones at sheffield do anyway) so that a train finds a distinct lack of rail to run on and finds itself in the 4'

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 23/02/2012 at 22:58 #29859
maxand
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So another way of putting it is that when they open inward, the wheel flanges of an approaching train soon find themselves on the outside of the w-t-g points and ride up? Thanks for answering the important question, which is that they are intended to act to stop trains moving out of a siding unless signalled to do so.
Last edited: 23/02/2012 at 23:02 by maxand
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 23/02/2012 at 23:12 #29860
Steamer
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maxand said:
So another way of putting it is that when they open inward, the wheel flanges of an approaching train soon find themselves on the outside of the w-t-g points and ride up?
I think I've got this right:



The red rails are the switch rails (i.e. the rails that move).

Forgive the crudity of the model, there wasn't time to paint it or build it to scale etc.

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Last edited: 23/02/2012 at 23:16 by Steamer
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 23/02/2012 at 23:22 #29863
BarryM
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Here is a Photo.
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 25/02/2012 at 01:53 #29924
40044
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I worked at Lime St for a year or so from 1989, although not in the 'box. I was told that the purpose of these points was to derail anything running away out of the neck but (hopefully!) without any vehicle so derailed ending up leaning to one side - for obvious reasons. I was also told that should the track circuit that covers the points occupy without a route being called, all the surrounding track circuits would 'flood' and therefore return signals to danger.

HTH

Last edited: 25/02/2012 at 01:54 by 40044
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 25/02/2012 at 13:27 #29951
mfcooper
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" said:
I was also told that should the track circuit that covers the points occupy without a route being called, all the surrounding track circuits would 'flood' and therefore return signals to danger.
Interesting. Something for the next release, methinks...

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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 25/02/2012 at 19:11 #29998
jc92
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" said:
" said:
I was also told that should the track circuit that covers the points occupy without a route being called, all the surrounding track circuits would 'flood' and therefore return signals to danger.
Interesting. Something for the next release, methinks...
that just sounds like the trap swas fitted with interrupters

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: How does the Neck Siding work? 26/02/2012 at 15:20 #30040
kbarber
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" said:
" said:
I was also told that should the track circuit that covers the points occupy without a route being called, all the surrounding track circuits would 'flood' and therefore return signals to danger.
Interesting. Something for the next release, methinks...

I'd have thought that was pretty normal... I've an idea somewhere in the back of my mind it's called Flank Protection and, when you think about it, it's a pretty logical bit of protection to have.

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