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| How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 03:33 #29050 | |
maxand
1637 posts |
As simple as it appears at first sight, Lime Street is deceptive. If trains become delayed, there is a flow-on effect which can become very disruptive and lead to extensive re-platforming. Here's an example. 2F972 enters the area at 12:17 bound for platform 6, where it becomes 2H483, departing at 12:55. 1R66 enters the area at 12:21, also bound for platform 6, where it becomes 1L11, departing at 12:52. Normally this wouldn't cause a problem; 2F97 enters P6 first but leaves last. However, if 2F97 is delayed, 1R66 may arrive ahead of it, and the user now has to work out what to do with it. Another possibility is that the user misreads the platform number and signals 1R66 to P5, ahead of a train assigned to that platform due to arrive in a few minutes. Lime Street has 9 platforms, extensive interlocking and only 2 tracks in and out. I'd like to ask in this post: what are the preferred ways to deal with trains which for some reason can't be fitted into the platform assigned to them, or got put into the wrong platform? I have never found this easy. Possible solutions: Problem: Assigned platform is already occupied 1) Find an empty platform and edit TT to assign train to that platform. 2) Find an empty platform but just signal train to go there. 3) Use a siding to hold arrived train. But that means passengers can't alight till it is at a platform. 3) Hold train at approach until assigned platform is empty. This will delay trains behind it, resulting in a flow-on of TT disruptions. Not practicable if occupying train doesn't depart for an hour, unless its TT too is edited. 4) Remove train or shorten its length to fit in another platform. Extreme measures Problem: Accidentally directed to wrong platform 1) Reverse out, reset points and set route to correct platform. Ideally one should be able to keep the original TT and simply order the driver to reverse out along the Up line, change points and then order him to reverse direction. But I keep getting "Waiting for correct route to be set". So I abandon timetable, try shunting out and back, holding up a whole slew of other trains just to get to the correct platform. 2) Allow train to use wrong platform. Maybe this is the best solution. Should I try reversing, edit TT to change platform to this one and then reverse back? What would signallers do in practice? In SimSig, is there any such thing as a "preferred", workable solution? How many of you end up editing the timetables, and how many prefer to shunt trains back out and in again, maybe storing them in sidings temporarily? Last edited: 08/02/2012 at 03:35 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 07:41 #29058 | |
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Sam Tugwell
494 posts |
Maxand said:and only 2 tracks in and out.Maybe try 4? "Signalman Exeter" Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 07:46 #29059 | |
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Aurora
183 posts |
" said:Maxand said:and only 2 tracks in and out.Maybe try 4? I'm sure he meant two in each direction. Nil. Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 07:54 #29060 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:I'm sure he meant two in each direction. I thought that would have been obvious. Back to topic: I also tried parking blocking trains on the Neck Siding, but even though I'd long abandoned the timetable, I still got "Waiting for correct route to be set". Finally (maybe just the passage of time, maybe I did something correct here) I got a phone call from the driver asking for Authority to accept new route (or something like that) to goods siding. When I okayed him, only then did the train begin to move. It's certainly more logical to reverse trains out onto the neck siding than to tie up either of the two Up/Down lines, except that this sim makes this process so difficult. Maybe I'm overlooking an easier way of doing this. Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 09:18 #29064 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Re-platform as required. This is what SimSig is all about. Running trains to timetable is no challenge. Safely getting around failures (not by cheating), regulating, re-platforming and making the best of bad situations is what separates the men from the boys and is what makes the signallers job interesting. You wouldn't shunt a train out of a platform to put it in the correct place, that would require a driver to be available to shunt it. Last edited: 08/02/2012 at 09:31 by Firefly Log in to reply The following user said thank you: AndyG |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 09:37 #29071 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
" said:In the real world you would expect 2. Clearly in reality a signaller can't do 4, it is there for users to get out of a serious problem. 3(the second one) possibly if it's only a minute or so. Changing platforms at a terminus station is less of an issue for passengers than it is at a through station, because they are usually on the level and don't need to cross a footbridge to get from one to another. Also platform information is often only given after the incoming service has arrived, so passengers will be waiting on the concourse at the end anyway. " said:
The driver will report "waiting for correct route to be set" because he is working to the timetable of the next working and the next location within that - you have not communicated to him that you want to shunt him out to clear the platform. Once arrived stock would not usually be shunted out and back in to move it to the allocated platform, and this isn't much inconvenience to passengers for the reasons noted above. An exception might be if there was a shortage of platforms and some time before his due departure. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 09:55 #29076 | |
postal
5264 posts |
" said:I also tried parking blocking trains on the Neck Siding, but even though I'd long abandoned the timetable, I still got "Waiting for correct route to be set".Maxand Obviously something you haven't fallen foul of before or picked up from the several times it has been mentioned on The Forum over the passage of time. In the real world there is a very high safety regime for passenger trains, but this regime is relaxed slightly if the line is defined as a goods line over which passenger trains are not allowed to travel except under very tightly controlled conditions. You can find all of the real world information in the Rule Book if you want to trawl through that. To replicate that SimSig has some inbuilt code which allows the developer to code certain sections of track as goods lines. This code inhibits Classes 1 and 2 trains (E.g. 1A00, 2B01) from entering as these codes represent passenger trains. To allow for the real world cases where a signaller can route a passenger train onto a goods line if certain safety requirements have been met, the SimSig user can over-ride the code by giving permission in a telephone call to the driver to proceed - for those interested in keeping book this usually invokes penalty points but the penalty could well be less than the points lost due to delay if the train is held without escaping via the goods line. I think (although I could be wrong) that the way round your problem of accessing the neck would have been to abandon the TT of the train, then edit the TD to 5R66 or whatever (Class 5s can access goods lines) and run it into the Neck. However, this would only work in real life if a driver was sitting waiting in the unit. This is an unlikely scenario given the half hour dwell time of 1R66; the driver will more likely be in the mess room or taking a PNB. The most true-to-life response would be to find the way to re-platform the late arrival that brought the least overall loss of time. If there is a free platform, you may get away with no additional loss of time. Otherwise you may have to juggle platforms for the next hour or two until you manage to get things back to normal. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 10:06 #29080 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
another option (proffessionals feel free to correct me here) is a bit of throwing timetables about within suitable traction. eg if a late N/T 156 arrives and is causing inconvienence, you could swap it, and another 156s timetables over, in other words, swap diagrams for the rest of the day. obviously this only works within TOCS and within suitable traction (a pendolino cant without wires) this is rare, but ive seen it conducted at sheffield on several occasions with northern "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 10:19 #29081 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
At Paddington, we have a small office in which sits a member of Resources staff - kind of like a local problem-solver. So let's assume a late incoming train is going to cause delays. The train is due to form the 09.00, and it's not due in until 09.45. Obviously, allowing the TT to run as normal is going to result in the 09.00 leaving 45 minutes late. So instead, we "step up" sets. They might nick the 09.15 to form the 09.00, and then the 09.22 for the 09.15. The set for the 09.30 then becomes the 09.22, and so on. This goes on until the delayed train arrives, and then it can finally get the sequence back to normal. This happens regularly, helping things stay on time. Obviously there are some considerations to think of - certain HSTs can't be stolen because of their buffet cars. For example, the travelling chef services to Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea can't be used because the crew would end up with a train without the right type of buffet car (not grill/oven etc.). FGW buffet cars come in several different layouts. Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 12:29 #29096 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
This has become a very interesting aspect and I'm glad to have started this thread. Your replies show it's quite difficult for nonprofessionals like me to think like a signaller in these situations. postal, I was aware that passenger trains should not be shunted through shunt signals but didn't know about the code actually inhibiting passenger trains in this way, nor about the lack of drivers for a half-hour stopover. Of course, and thanks. jc92: Quote: eg if a late N/T 156 arrives and is causing inconvienence, you could swap it, and another 156s timetables over, in other words, swap diagrams for the rest of the day.swap diagrams = swap timetables? Couldn't that just be done in SimSig by "run to a different timetable"? Do it twice, once for each train, and problem solved? TOCS: Train Operating Conditions or Train Operating Companies? I infer what you mean is that this could only be performed between two trains belonging to the same company. So the bottom line is, forget about shunting back and forth; replatform and have done with it. Got it now. Whew! Last edited: 08/02/2012 at 12:30 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 12:41 #29097 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
post privatisation - yes - youd be getting into all sorts of horrible paperwork and finance trying to interwork different TOCs stock. diagrams are similar to timetables, each unit will have a diagram for the day, for instance, leave depot XX:XX am ECS to station, work 2E23 to another station, work 2B23 to another station, then ECS to depot. these could be swapped, as you say using the run to another timetable function one thing to bear in mind is that a train timed to use a 90mph class 158 for example, couldnt be operated with a 75mph class 142 "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 12:50 #29098 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
" said:one thing to bear in mind is that a train timed to use a 90mph class 158 for example, couldnt be operated with a 75mph class 142 Not unless the linespeed doesn't go above 75 at any point. 
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| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 12:54 #29099 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:one thing to bear in mind is that a train timed to use a 90mph class 158 for example, couldnt be operated with a 75mph class 142Joe Strictly speaking, perhaps shouldn't rather than couldn't. If circumstances arose where there had been some operational disruption and the only stock to run a 158-diagrammed service on the last train of the day was a 142, I suspect that there might be a biting of bullets (by both management and passengers!) and the train would run using the 142. Unless the TOC went to the modern idiom and put buses and taxis on causing greater delay and expense but then charged it back to Network Rail because it wasn't their failure that caused the disruption. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 13:10 #29101 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
One of the issues here is that there's no such thing as a Control office in Simsig. I'm sure you'll recall my epistle on Control & what they (used to) do? In the situation you mention Max, the bobby would ring the station supervisor when he realised he had trains arriving out of course (if both trains are booked to be 156s, f'rinstance, they can just be swapped into each other's diagrams as has already been said, but the supervisor may know something the signalman doesn't). Control needs to know too - traction is often assigned to a diagram with a view to getting it where it needs to be for maintenance next Tuesday fortnight and if you go swapping them around without telling anybody things can go very haywire indeed! Of course Control might already know there's late running and in real life you might be told by them what to swap. As we've none of that here, you have an awful lot more discretion. My suggestion would be to replatform as necessary until you get two trains with similar traction you can fit into one platform, then swap timetables to get things back right. And thank your lucky stars you won't get a "Please Explain" or a Form 1 for doing it! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 14:07 #29115 | |
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jc92
3685 posts |
" said:" said:indeed (barnsley line springs to mind)one thing to bear in mind is that a train timed to use a 90mph class 158 for example, couldnt be operated with a 75mph class 142 postal - i agree a slight oversight on my part. i was just trying to make the point that a DMU isnt just a DMU it might be diagrammed for a reason. although i agree with you as i have seen a 150 working the nottingham/leeds before now (a 158 diagram) "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 15:45 #29135 | |
DriverCurran
688 posts |
All this is good on paper until the train crew of train A (currently running late) work train B (ready in the platform to go) in which case there is no point stepping up the stock. I think we need to be thankful that the crews working from SimSig Depot all book on correct time and there are numerous 'As Ordered' crews. Paul You have to get a red before you can get any other colour Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 16:51 #29141 | |
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guidomcc
246 posts |
RE: maxand i sim Lime St with platforms 1, 5, 6 and 9 closed and the throat and neck closed, but i still manage to platform all trains. It is only 390s and following trains that end up waiting for a platform, and most trains are platformed correctly or opposite platform.. as had been said before, as Lime Street is at the end of the line, most passengers will be waiting on the concourse rather than the platform so no inconvenience is caused
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| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 17:19 #29142 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
and of course passengers arriving on a terminating train are happy with any platform, they just want to get there.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: officer dibble |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 17:44 #29143 | |
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guidomcc
246 posts |
recall the announcement "the XXXX train to X will now be departing from platform X ... because the signaller has changed his mind." xD
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| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 17:59 #29144 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:The wrong food trolley Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 18:00 #29145 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:Where's the like button when you need itThe wrong food trolley 
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 21:29 #29159 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:On Monday, FGW replaced an HST with a 2-car unit on a Taunton-Bristol-London train. As I normally catch that train, and didn't fancy trying to get on it, I didn't hang around to find out what class it was - the Temple Meads staff were saying "the 0830 will only be 2 carriages, so please catch another train if you can" Log in to reply |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 23:06 #29165 | |
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alan_s
152 posts |
Wow, that would have been quite a sight, a 158 in Paddington. Doubt it would keep to time, with a top speed of 90 rather than 125! (or worse, a 150 at 75)
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| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 08/02/2012 at 23:34 #29168 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
It was being terminated short at Swindon, where through passengers were expected to change. I don't think there are very many through passengers on that train though, going by the proportion of passengers who get on and off at Temple Meads - between Taunton and Bristol it stops at every station except Parson St and Bedminster, so it's mostly used by local commuters.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: alan_s |
| Re: How to manage problem trains here realistically? 09/02/2012 at 10:45 #29185 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
So broadly speaking the railway still - so far as it can these days - does the best it's able with the resources to hand; it won't put a 2-car 75mph unit on an 8-car 125mph diagram if there's a snowballs of finding an HST that would get to destination earlier than the substitute, but if there's no other way that's what they'll do. Better an inadequate train than no train at all. Though I don't suppose they'd go so far as the private initiative many years ago on the GN Main Line during an ASLEF strike. One of the few NUR drivers (a particularly well-known character, David "Mad" Impy, now long retired) was asked to take a loco light from Hitchin to Finsbury Park depot. Waiting signal at Hitchin, he saw a would-be passenger (brave soul); after a brief chat he offered the guy a lift (but told him he'd have to make his own way from Finsbury Park to Kings X), an offer that was quickly accepted. This seems to have happened at several more places on the journey. When the loco stopped at Finsbury Park, there happened to be an inspector lurking. Over twenty people were counted disgorging themselves from the two cabs! The inevitable happened. I'm reliably informed the Area Manager had difficulty keeping a straight face and the "reprimand" was delivered with a broad grin. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |