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| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 19:37 #37241 | |
woodruff
204 posts |
I am trying to write a timetable for London Liverpool Street for 1977 but need help in finding out which services were worked by which trains and roughly how often the services run, aka hourly / 1/2 hourly. Below is the type of trains for the GE region and the services , from the sim wiki, but I want to match the train types to the services and also need to know what loco hauled services were around? The timetable will be a fictious one I have to add. As the IECC was also opened in 1987 then the ARS would have to be switched off. I have been doing some testing and have found that you can timetable a loco to depart at the end of its arriving train, DIT. Any help would be much appreciated. Train types from my copy of BR Abc 1977 class 306 class 307 class 308/1 class 302 ?? class 308/4 class 308/2 class 305/2 class 309/1 class 309/2 class 309/3 class 312/1 class 315 class 47 class 40? class 37? class 31 Trains from and to from the sim wiki. A - Manningtree and Harwich Town B - LTS trains between Liverpool Street and Shoeburyness (via Laindon) (restricted to individual reporting numbers 80 to 99 inclusive); Stansted Airport branch (restricted to individual reporting numbers 00 to 79 inclusive) C - Stratford and Gidea Park; Cambridge to Ely and Norwich D - Cheshunt and Hertford East (via Southbury) E - Eastern England F - Chelmsford (including Braintree branch) and Colchester H - Thornton Field CMD; Cambridge, Ely and Kings Lynn L - East Anglia J - Wickford and Southminster K - Billericay and Southend Victoria M - Midlands and North West N - Colchester Town and Clacton / Walton-on-the-Naze O - Southern England; Cheshunt and Hertford East (via Lea Valley) P - Stowmarket and Norwich / Great Yarmouth; Cambridge R - LTS trains between Liverpool Street and Shoeburyness (via Rainham) S - Scotland; Roydon and Bishop's Stortford (via Lea Valley) T - Colchester / Marks Tey and Sudbury; Clapton Junction and Chingford U - Hackney Downs and Enfield Town V - West of England and South Wales; Romford and Upminster; ECS trains running to Ilford EMUD W - Harold Wood and Shenfield Y - Ipswich and Felixstowe; Roydon and Bishop's Stortford (via Southbury) Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 20:09 #37246 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
You can get some clues for the Cambridge trains from my 1977 Cambridge Timetable. Why do you ant the loco to depart DIT (I assume you mean Dead in Tow), they popped out after the train departed and then backed onto the next arrival - I think some substantial remodelling took place after 1977 so finding somewhere to deposit them might be difficult I guess. From your list note that Stansted Airport station did not open till the 1990s. 1977 is too far back for me to know for sure what worked what but assuming little had changed by the 1980s then generally there ere no DMUs out of Liverpool St so anything that left the wires would be loco hauled. While Class 40s did work out of the station I think that was earlier than 1977 staple locos were 31,37 and 47. You might be able to get a real WTT from the RTCS (that where I got copies of the ECML 1977s). Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 04/11/2012 at 20:10 by Peter Bennet Reason: typos etc Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 20:43 #37247 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
I wanted the loco to depart DIT [ dead in tow] on the back of the Ecs trains, 5xxx. The loco hauled that form another service will have the loco uncouple at the front , a second loco attach as normal then depart as you said , after the main train has gone. I did try having a loco reverse at signal 083 on the sim and it does work but requires a telephone message from the loco about the incorrect route ! So I am still writing test timetables for this one. Otherwise the loco will just have to depart from the sim. I think there is another post about loco;s on this sim and that there is no shunt signals. Thanks for the info about the RTCS as I will give that a try. Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 20:56 #37248 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
" said:I wanted the loco to depart DIT [ dead in tow] on the back of the Ecs trains, 5xxx. The loco hauled that form another service will have the loco uncouple at the front , a second loco attach as normal then depart as you said , after the main train has gone. I did try having a loco reverse at signal 083 on the sim and it does work but requires a telephone message from the loco about the incorrect route ! So I am still writing test timetables for this one. Otherwise the loco will just have to depart from the sim. I think there is another post about loco;s on this sim and that there is no shunt signals.British railway books also supply timetables, and equally Ebay can turn up some cheap deals. be aware that you will require two matching WTTs for liverpool Street. section LA covering anglia (ie trains to norwich ipswich, lowestoft and southend, and a second one (cant remember section) covering Pbro cambs kings lyynn and other local services. there were loco holding bays at liverpool street (still showing on a 1988 quail), as well as a turnback spur that could hold locos, but that didnt survive the resignalling due to the change in traction. the only other piece of traction i can think of that has definetly been missed out, is a stratford based class 08 acting as station pilot, shunting and reforming parcels traffic overnight, and occasionally passenger stock as well. as liverpool street was the main GE terminus, there will be a fair bit of this "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 04/11/2012 at 20:59 by jc92 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 22:05 #37249 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
There was an hourly Kings Lynn Service hauled by class 37,s based at March (31b). One of the Rush hour trains was called "The Fenman". There was also an hourly Norwich service hauled by Stratford based Class 47,s. At Liverpool St they used the Centre platforms which nicely segregated the two halves of the Electric services. I can also remember the Gidea Park Inner Surban sevice was worked by Class 305 EMU,s.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 22:48 #37250 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
I have been trying out an 08 on a test timetable but the issue is that the poor 08 has to run off the sim and then re-appear, sim licence, [modellers licence], I suppose, after running round etc at say Stratford [ Thornton fields cs or Orient cs? But an 08 trundling along at 20mph on the main line seems a good way to drive someone to distraction ! Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 04/11/2012 at 23:30 #37251 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:But an 08 trundling along at 20mph on the main line seems a good way to drive someone to distraction !15mph? I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 05:18 #37253 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:there were loco holding bays at liverpool street (still showing on a 1988 quail), as well as a turnback spur that could hold locos, but that didnt survive the resignalling due to the change in traction.Between platforms 10 and 11 there were some sidings, hence the subs on signals 25/29/33/35/37 that don't appear to serve any other purpose. They were in the early resignalling (ie they did survive the resignalling and thus appeared on the IECC) but I don't think they lasted long. FWIW, 25 years later the subs are still shown on the IECC screens. I suspect any trace of the sidings are now buried under pilings for the buildings above. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 05:21 #37254 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:" said:Some 08s were rated for 20mph. I wouldn't have thought that an 08 would run a regularly scheduled trip to Stratford and back during the day though.But an 08 trundling along at 20mph on the main line seems a good way to drive someone to distraction !15mph? SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 09:42 #37258 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
I used to go to Liverpool Street a lot in that time as I had relatives in Walthamstow who lived a few minutes walk from St James Street on the Chingford line. Class 305 covered almost all the "Jazz" services until they were replaced by 315. 306 on Gidea Park/Shenfield until replacement by 315. 302 occasionally on services from the LTS. 312 Colchester/Ipswich Semi Fast. 309 Clacton/Walton on Naze. 307/308 Southend and some LTS services especially in the rush hour. Class 47 on Norwich/Great Yarmouth. Class 37 Cambridge/Kings Lynn and occasionally 31 or 47. Can't ever remember a class 40 although there was one in Stratford loco works for a while under repair. There was always a couple of SF based 08's there as station pilots used to shunt the various Parcels, Mail and Newspaper trains that started there. Liverpool Street was the darkest dankest station of all the London Termini in those days and was far removed from what it looks like today. But I spent many happy days there watching the comings and goings 
Last edited: 06/11/2012 at 15:11 by moonraker Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 10:37 #37259 | |
postal
5265 posts |
" said:Can't ever remember a class 40Only because you are too young! The GE line got the very first of them in 1958 and had D200/D202-5 on the Norwich trains for a number of years in the 1960s. To think that we used to stand at Gidea Park with our short pants on and look out for a diesel instead of one of those boring old steam things. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: woodruff |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 11:24 #37261 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:" said:D200 at york still bears its Stratford heritage under its numberCan't ever remember a class 40Only because you are too young! The GE line got the very first of them in 1958 and had D200/D202-5 on the Norwich trains for a number of years in the 1960s. To think that we used to stand at Gidea Park with our short pants on and look out for a diesel instead of one of those boring old steam things. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 12:48 #37265 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:A few years back 40145 did a "comemorative" tour Liverpool St to Norwich (presumably the 50th anniversary so 2008). Infact it was 3 tours over three days from memory.Can't ever remember a class 40Only because you are too young! The GE line got the very first of them in 1958 and had D200/D202-5 on the Norwich trains for a number of years in the 1960s. To think that we used to stand at Gidea Park with our short pants on and look out for a diesel instead of one of those boring old steam things. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 12:50 #37266 | |
58050
2659 posts |
Your going to have fun & games sorting out the traction for this timetable, for a start certain Cl.37s were barred from using some lines at Liverpool Street due to the OLE on the Up & Down Subs. No Cl.37s with roof mounted horns were allowed over these routes. I remember traveling to Colchester from Liverpool Street in 1977/1978. The Norwich/Harwich Inter-City services were predominantly worked by Cl.47s off Stratford TMD. However Cl.37s & Cl.31s were also used. The Liv St. - King's Lynn services also could be worked by any of those three types of traction. The ECS movements of loco hauled stock from Thornton Fields CS were usually hauled by Cl.31s or Cl.37s or Cl.47s. Also the Cl.31/0s were used quite alot in & around Liverpool Street at this time. Cl.40s by this time had left the Great E£astern apart from working on freight services via Whitemoor marshalling yard. The current layout for Liverpool Street would be difficult as there aren't any sidings for the stabling of the locos awaiting there next turns of duty.
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| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 13:17 #37267 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Further to your traction requirements, the units are aas follows- Cl.302 known as 'Oxo-cubes' worked services to & from Fenchurch St - Shoeburyness, but could also be seen at Liverpool Street. Cl.306 units were 3 car sets, known as 'Jazz' sets, when I worked at Liverpool Street Regional Control I covered the unit desk as a relief & they regularly referred to them as 3 ir 6 car Jazz'. They worked Liverpool Street - Shenfield. Cl.307 4 car suburban units worked G.E Outer Suburban services. Cl.308/1 4 car units also worked the G.E. Outer Suburban services. Cl.305/2 4 car sets worked G.E. Outer Suburban services. Cl.309/1 & Cl.309/4 4 car sets worked Liverpool Street - Clacton & Walton services. Cl.309/2 were the same as above, but with a Buffet & also worked Clacton & Walton services. No Cl.312s or Cl.313s on the G.E. Cl.315 4 car units were used on Liverpool Street - Shenfield services as Inner Suburban 4 car sets. Quite a number of units classes, although all the different sub-classes for Cl.309 are basically the same length. There was a Liverpool Street pilot, although it was not uncommon to see mainline locos doing stock shunts. Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 19:30 #37286 | |
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moonraker
370 posts |
I thought the Chingford, Enfield Town, Hertford East, Cheshunt etc services were the Jazz lines Pascal. When I used to travel on the Class 305's on the Chingford line they had "Jazz Lines" and a multicoloured emblem by the guards compartment but maybe all the suburban lines were classed as "Jazz"
Last edited: 05/11/2012 at 19:30 by moonraker Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 19:47 #37287 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
They did work those services, but could also be seen on the others as well. I didn't at Liverpool Street control till 1990 & I remember the 'Jazz' units working those services you mentioned then, but they were also used on services to Shenfield & over onto the LTS. Similarly we used to get Cl.302 units off the LTS working into Liverpool Street & subsequently working down to Chelmsford. There used to be a postal run from Norwich to Liverpool Street with Cl.302 units converted to EPUs, either 3 car or 6 car in 1990. I agree with you that Liverpool Street was a dark place in the 1970s, all the EMUs tended to work into the shorter platforms on the left as you looked at the station throat & the Inter-City services used to terminate in the platforms in front of the Great Eastern Hotel which overlooked the Loverpool Street concourse. No sign of any of that there today.
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| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 22:13 #37292 | |
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moonraker
370 posts |
Yes I was there a couple of years ago and my goodness what a change from the late 70's early 80's. All lightness and retail outlets now 
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| Liverpool Street 1977 05/11/2012 at 23:11 #37293 | |
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woodruff
204 posts |
Well thank you for all the replys. They have all given me some inspiration in some way and all offered valuable info. Now if only the sim had three shunt signals on each departure line....
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| Liverpool Street 1977 06/11/2012 at 11:00 #37302 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
The class 306s weren't the jazz units, they were the 3-car 305s that ran up the North East London lines until the 315s finally took them over. The 306s were conversions of the original Shenfield 1500V DC stock of 1949 (3-car again).
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| Liverpool Street 1977 06/11/2012 at 20:36 #37311 | |
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Signalhunter
177 posts |
The original "Jazz" trains were steam hauled! N7's, I think.
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| Liverpool Street 1977 06/11/2012 at 21:48 #37312 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:The original "Jazz" trains were steam hauled! N7's, I think.In due course. There were only 2 N7s on the stock list when the Jazz started in 1920 (although series production started in 1921). The original motive power was supplied by Worsdell and Holden 2-4-2Ts of classes F4, F5 and F6 (reputedly nicknamed "Gobblers" because of their appetite for coal). “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Signalhunter |
| Liverpool Street 1977 07/11/2012 at 07:32 #37313 | |
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mfloyd
189 posts |
Can anyone tell me where the code is for Liv St, for some reason my copy is asking for it again, checked wiki, cant find it - i know ive seen them somewhere!
Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
| Liverpool Street 1977 07/11/2012 at 09:28 #37314 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:Can anyone tell me where the code is for Liv St, for some reason my copy is asking for it again, checked wiki, cant find it - i know ive seen them somewhere!On the Official Software section of the Downloads Page. It is 4111E. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mfloyd |
| Liverpool Street 1977 07/11/2012 at 13:25 #37322 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:I agree with you that Liverpool Street was a dark place in the 1970s, all the EMUs tended to work into the shorter platforms on the left as you looked at the station throatNo, a lot of them terminated in the high-numbered platforms on the right. After all, it's the right-hand pair that are the "Electric" lines. My memory of the late 1970s is that you had local EMUs on the lines through Hackney in the low-numbered (short, as you say) platforms. The Cambridge and King's Lynn trains (all loco hauled) tended to use 7 and 8 - the last of the short platforms, while the Norwich LH trains were longer and used 9 and 10, which were the ones that pushed right into the back of the station. Then 11 to 18 were full of EMUs to Shenfield (mostly 306s), Southend Victoria, Colchester, and Clacton/Walton (the 309s with the through connection, splitting at Thorpe-le-Soken). (I also "cabbed" a number of trains between Rayleigh and Liverpool Street, but perhaps we'd better not mention that.) Log in to reply |