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| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 09:54 #37504 | |
quickthorn
23 posts |
I know this is a "piece of string" question but.. I was looking at the photo of rugby box mentioned in the chatbox yesterday Rugby signalbox The signaller nearest seems to have 6 or 7 screens in front of him, all full of track. I was wondering what sort of area he'd be covering (or perhaps what his workload would be), in Simsig terms: would it be like running, say, Worksop on your own, or something larger? Last edited: 15/11/2012 at 09:55 by quickthorn Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 10:53 #37510 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
You're right about the piece of string. It would depend on so many things the best I can do is a few (old-ish) examples and a few thoughts. It is likely to depend rather a lot on the era the signalling was installed. The earliest regulations limited the distance from signalbox to any facing points it controlled to (I think) 100 or 150 yards. So in an extensive and complicated layout you'd be ikely to need boxes about 300yd apart just to control all the points; although each box would have its own signals there would quite likely be extensive slotting (dual control) and (at least theoretically) the extreme could have been boxes with a 150yd section each side that didn't have exclusive control of a single signal. At Engine Shed Junction (see some of my shots in the Gallery thread) the adjacent boxes were 247yd, 269yd and (until Kentish Town Sidings was abolished in 1969) 279yd. But that, by the late 1970s at least, was a rather quiet little place. (In late 1978 it acquired a panel and control of the main line for a few years as part of the West Hampstead stageworks) and warranted a grade C under the grading scheme of the time). Borough Market Junction, between London Bridge and Cannon Street, had sections of 464yd, 609yd (until 1957, 243yd thereafter) and 642yd, and used automatic colour light signalling (not the Absolute Block that was in use at Engine Shed). It was so busy that a 35 lever frame needed two signalmen, not only that, it needed a train recorder as well and he had to be a qualified signalman because otherwise even a brief loo break couldn't be accommodated without disrupting the service. Once "modern" signalling started to appear (late 1920s/early 30s - yes, it's older than quite a lot of the preserved steam locos running around today!) the area that could be covered rose considerably. But much of a control area would be automatic sections the signalman didn't control directly (apart from needing to talk trainsby signals during a failure), he just watched trains approach on his diagram and worked the points & signals adjacent to the box. From the early 1960s, with the development of multiplexing systems capable of handling safety-critical functions without needing a separate wire for everything, that idea was developed. If you look at the Kings X sim, you'll see there's islands of controlled signals with auto sections between. A signalman will control one or more of those islands. (I suspect the London end man does just Kings X/Belle Isle and perhaps Holloway, while the country end man probably has no difficulty handling Langley Jc/Stevenage, Hitchin, Biggleswade (part of the Peterborough sim but in real life worked from KX) and the Cambridge branch.) Addition of ARS (Automatic Routesetting, the original British Rail system developed to allow full computer control of regulating decisions) increased the possible control area still further. Have a look at the Liverpool St sim - basically it covers Bethnal Green and Liverpool St. That area is worked by one person (but it relies heavily on ARS doing most of the work). The 1949 signalling (some of the most advanced in the country at the time) needed four signalmen to cover the same area, plus a "regulator" (a supervisor making decisions about replatforming and such) at Liverpool St itself and a train recorder at both LV and Bethnal Green - and the BG train recorder also had to add platform numbers to the train descriptions for every train that passed. How many were needed for the same area in mecchanical days I hate to think but it can't have been less than 12 signalmen alone (could well have been 15 or more) plus booking boys and the odd regulator. So try playing Liverpool Street. Then switch the ARS off and try it again. I'm pretty certain Rugby has ARS, or perhaps a successor system - things have developed immensely since Liverpool St was commissioned - it's a bit of a shock to realise that was no less than 23 years ago! So it's possible the signalmen you see aren't working that hard; certainly the 3rd one from the right seems to be taking things easy (though it'd be unwise to assume he's switched off). The odd train out of course isn't going to disturb things too much; a few manual routes then go back to keeping an eye on things. But if something happens and ARS has to be switched off, you're probably in the Liverpool-St-without-ARS region of workload. Being specific about Rugby, I can count 5 signalmen; I don't know if that's all of them but I suspect there's no more than 6. Looking at the video wall display, the complex bit with platforms & flyover at the near end is Nuneaton with the 4-track section towards Tamworth, Lichfield and Armitage (the old layout was part of the Stafford sim) on the extreme right. The fringe to Stoke (which controls Rugely and Colwich) is somewhere in the Armitage area. Trent Valley Jc and Rugby are visible to the left of the 3-track section and beyond Rugby the lines separate into the Northampton loop and the "Old Road". Although Euston and Willesden are shown at the far end of the video wall, they are controlled from Wembley Main Line box. Currently the station area at Bletchley and Watford are still worked from the 1960s NX panels, although Bletchley is scheduled to be remodelled and controlled from Rugby this Christmas. The eventual fate of Watford is unknown; it would make better sense to put it onto Wembley (especially as Kings Langley Loop is important for regulating approaching freight), but the original plans had it also going to Rugby. That piece of string is mighty tangled, I'm afraid, but I hope this gives a bit of a flavour. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: quickthorn |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 11:09 #37512 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
in york IECC, as commissioned, there was york north workstation, covering the station up to northallerton and york south, covering holgate to temple hirst/heck GF and to copmanthorpe. this duty also took over church fenton duty. hope that gives a rough idea. Prior to this, the PSB (worked by OCS/one control switch working) was worked by four signalman and a regulator. there were no automatic signals as far as im aware, so every route had to be manually set and cancelled. one man covered chaloners whin jcn - holgate, the next holgate, queen street and york station south, the next york station north and waterworks crossing, and the last worked the clifton area. just to add to keiths comments about automatic signalling, i beleive the LSWR mainline had this type of signalling, with automatic blocks between signalboxes, which themselves controllled a station area, crossovers and sidings. this reduced the number of basic blockposts that would be required to maintain an intensive service. equally the ECML, before IECC take over between york and darlington was signalled with "islands" at tollerton, thirsk and northallerton, with long sections of automatic working between. Joe "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: quickthorn |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 11:22 #37513 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:The earliest regulations limited the distance from signalbox to any facing points it controlled to (I think) 100 or 150 yards. So in an extensive and complicated layout you'd be likely to need boxes about 300yd apart just to control all the points; although each box would have its own signals there would quite likely be extensive slotting (dual control) and (at least theoretically) the extreme could have been boxes with a 150yd section each side that didn't have exclusive control of a single signal.Maximum mechanically-worked facing point distances, nabbed from elsewhere: 1874 120 yds 1877 150 yds 1885 180 yds 1900 200 yds 1908 250 yds 1925 350 yds Of course, that's no restriction on trailing point distance or motorised point distance, or on signals - station limits starting half a mile from the signalbox certainly isn't unheard of. Those distances also apply to passenger lines - distances of 400 yards for facing points on goods lines occurred. Last edited: 15/11/2012 at 11:26 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 14:18 #37517 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:" said:Thanks DannyThe earliest regulations limited the distance from signalbox to any facing points it controlled to (I think) 100 or 150 yards...Maximum mechanically-worked facing point distances, nabbed from elsewhere: I can assure you from experience a 350 yard pull was not for the fainthearted. Kensington North Main 35 points are forever engraved on my mind (and I suspect my back muscles), with 34 and 36 FPLs that both had to be got in before any motorail could depart. Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 16:16 #37519 | |
Andrew G
552 posts |
" said:in york IECC, as commissioned, there was york north workstation, covering the station up to northallerton and york south, covering holgate to temple hirst/heck GF and to copmanthorpe. this duty also took over church fenton duty. hope thatChurch Fenton went onto the Leeds East Workstation. This is an unusual workstation as there is also a Leeds Assist Workstation which is an exact duplicate of Leeds East with full operating controls - not like the shift managers console which is view only. For most of the day 2 signallers are on duty one on the main WS and one on the assist one. While they are duplicates the share of work is normally that one signaller covers the Station (and I think Neville Hill) with the other covering out to Micklefield and Church Fenton. They swap over a times during the day as the Station has the heaviest workload - lots of set swaps as well as an intensive service. Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 16:37 #37520 | |
Splodge
716 posts 
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Will a box have a reduced number of staff during quiet periods or would it always have a full complement in order to deal with any situations which occur?
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 16:57 #37521 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
That also varies between locations.
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| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 17:23 #37525 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:I know this is a "piece of string" question but..Rugby uses MCSs (GE) and their graphics are a lot bigger than IECC/Westcad/SimSig. Thus, it looks bigger, but you need more screens to see it. The southernmost workstation, Watford (though it doesn't control Watford) has the two junctions at Bourne End and Ledburn, plus the reversing platform at Tring. Most stuff goes through without changing lines so it can be left in auto, leaving just out-of-course regulation and the reversing at Tring to worry about. The other workstations are probably more interesting though. " said: in york IECC, as commissioned, there was york north workstation, covering the station up toNorth doesn't control the station - there is a simplified view of it but South controls the station. " said: I'm pretty certain Rugby has ARS, or perhaps a successor systemTRE's Signaller's Assistant, as far as I know only installed on the Watford workstation, but intended to be rolled out on to all workstations. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 21:32 #37536 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:I'm not quite sure you could call the Trent Valley workstation as interesting, and the staff there seemed to share that opinion.I know this is a "piece of string" question but..Rugby uses MCSs (GE) and their graphics are a lot bigger than IECC/Westcad/SimSig. Thus, it looks bigger, but you need more screens to see it. I don't think the Northampton work station is very exciting. Although I'm not sure if that's changed since I visited. " said: It's quite interesting as well to watch TSA give a class 5 ECS priority over a class 3 ECS. When I visited only Watford was equipped with the system, and as you say it was planned to be rolled out across the others. For anyone who's interested here's a close up (though slightly blurred) photo of one of the work stations. The name of which escapes me.  And a picture of myself working Watford work station on the simulator.  A couple of pictures of the panel in my local signal box. (Croess Newydd North Fork) This is all worked by the one signaler.  
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Last edited: 15/11/2012 at 22:16 by GeoffM Reason: Fixed quotes Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 22:20 #37540 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:It's quite interesting as well to watch TSA give a class 5 ECS priority over a class 3 ECS. When I visited only Watford was equipped with the system, and as you say it was planned to be rolled out across the others.You have to take it in the context of everything else that's going on around and the delays to each train rather than "a 5 beat a 3". Ultimately each train gets a score and one has to win, and without going through all the hundreds of variables, thresholds, margins, weighting factors etc, that go into that calculation, it's difficult to say whether it did as planned or not. And "as planned" is not necessarily what a human would do - and a human is not always right either. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 22:26 #37541 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:What sparked me saying that was a comment made my the training officer, apparently TSA doesn't (didn't) give priority to a class 3 over a class 5 in almost all situations. It's something that was picked up when Londom Midland applied for a few of there ECS moves to be recoded as class 3s.It's quite interesting as well to watch TSA give a class 5 ECS priority over a class 3 ECS. When I visited only Watford was equipped with the system, and as you say it was planned to be rolled out across the others.You have to take it in the context of everything else that's going on around and the delays to each train rather than "a 5 beat a 3". Ultimately each train gets a score and one has to win, and without going through all the hundreds of variables, thresholds, margins, weighting factors etc, that go into that calculation, it's difficult to say whether it did as planned or not. And "as planned" is not necessarily what a human would do - and a human is not always right either. I've also dropped a message into your inbox. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 15/11/2012 at 23:55 #37544 | |
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peterb
452 posts
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" said:For anyone who's interested here's a close up (though slightly blurred) photo of one of the work stations. The name of which escapes me.Looks like TV, Lichfield on the far right? Last edited: 15/11/2012 at 23:56 by peterb Log in to reply |
| What area would a real signaller cover? 03/12/2012 at 09:29 #38502 | |
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MrBitsy
121 posts |
We have three panels at West Hampstead plus a WestCad workstation. Our panel 2 only covers around 6 route miles, but is the same physical size as the other panels that cover 30 plus miles. Panel two will normally have up to ten trains on it, depending on time of day, but they wiz across the panel. During the day panel three never has less than 12 trains on it, but during rush hours can have up to 24 at any one time. My record for panel three was 37 trains during disruption!
TVSC Link 4 signaller - Temple Meads, Bath & Stoke Gifford Log in to reply |