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| Realism around passing signals 01/01/2013 at 23:39 #39950 | |
Hawk777
386 posts |
Sometimes a TCF or lamp failure causes a train to get stuck behind a signal at danger, and you have to tell the driver to pass it. You can do this either by answering the phone call (which arrives 2 minutes after the train stops), or by using the train list window. My question is this: is using the train list window realistic, or is it more realistic to wait for the phone call (and make every train 2 minutes late)? My initial thought was that the train list window is unrealistic, because the signaller can’t talk to the driver until the driver phones the signal box using a signal post phone. Then I thought about radios or other similar stuff. What does the real world look like in this respect? Can a signaller just call up a driver before (s)he’s even reached the signal (say while driving through the block in rear) and say “Hey, when you get to signal X, it’s broken, so don’t even bother stopping”? So far I’ve been playing Simsig waiting for the phone calls, but I’d like to know if I’ve been doing this unnecessarily.
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| Realism around passing signals 01/01/2013 at 23:44 #39951 | |
jc92
3690 posts 
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i imagine there will be a more detailed response from a proffesional regarding radios, but usually it will be telephone contact under normal circumstances. the train list window is only really for fiddling about when required in situations that wouldnt occur in real life.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 00:15 #39952 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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Normally, yes, there's nothing you can do other than wait for the Driver to contact you. With GSM-R (increasingly common, of course) and presumably CSR, the Signalman can initiate the call (equivalent to using the F2 interface, I suppose), but the instruction to pass the signal at Danger shouldn't be given until the train is at a stand at the signal, and the Driver has confirmed his location as such.
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| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 00:17 #39954 | |
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jc92
3690 posts
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" said:Normally, yes, there's nothing you can do other than wait for the Driver to contact you. With GSM-R (increasingly common, of course) and presumably CSR, the Signalman can initiate the call (equivalent to using the F2 interface, I suppose), but the instruction to pass the signal at Danger shouldn't be given until the train is at a stand at the signal, and the Driver has confirmed his location as such.out of interest what circumstance would this preferable to the telephone? is it commonplace to save time/a walk to the signal post, to use the GSM-R or is it signallers taste/discretion? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 00:34 #39956 | |
postal
5265 posts |
While the signaller can try and initiate a call, Section 3.3 of this part of the Rule Book instructs that as a driver "You must not use the radio when the train is moving if you might become distracted and put the train in danger" so there is no guarantee that your radio call will be answered until the train is at a stop.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: jc92 |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 00:53 #39959 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
I'm in the land of the former NSE and I've been using CSR as thr 1st port of call ever since we've had them installed to contact drivers. I've only used SPT when the radio has been playing up or there is a engineers or freight train in the stick that i need to talk to. But now that we have GSMR up and running that should be now less and less as every train/loco should have either a working CSR/GSMR in our area. For passing signals at danger the train needs to be at a stand. All other messages can be done on the move as long as the driver feels that it's not a distraction and at their discretion, otherwise they need to bring their train to a stand. But on the other hand if your playing a heritage timetable or its a sim of a box that did not have CSR and remember that even in boxes that had CSR not all trains had it fitted, i.e. Intercity's, freights and regional railways. Then there will no radios, so it's just down to waiting for that SPT to ring. Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 01:27 #39960 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts
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" said:" said:Normally, yes, there's nothing you can do other than wait for the Driver to contact you. With GSM-R (increasingly common, of course) and presumably CSR, the Signalman can initiate the call (equivalent to using the F2 interface, I suppose), but the instruction to pass the signal at Danger shouldn't be given until the train is at a stand at the signal, and the Driver has confirmed his location as such.out of interest what circumstance would this preferable to the telephone? is it commonplace to save time/a walk to the signal post, to use the GSM-R or is it signallers taste/discretion? It certainly saves time, particularly with freight Drivers (though they're currently the least likely to have GSM-R) who often sit at a signal for some time before coming on the phone. I suppose they're used to being stopped. Where the Driver is initiating the call, they inevitably prefer GSM-R (or even a mobile phone) to using an SPT, especially if it's raining! Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 06:57 #39963 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
Certainly in my experience the Signaller has contacted me via CSR before i've even come to a stand regarding problems ahead (they dont have a convinient F2 window to tell them the trains speed!) so using the F2 window to contact a driver immidiatly to tell them to 'pass signal at danger' is realistic for at least the ECML sims where EMUs are involved. Its also not un-common for a 'general call' to be put out over the CSR with a message like "Due to a Track Circuit Failure in the 'X' area, would all drivers please contact the signaller upon arrival at signal 'Y'. Where contact is not made on behalf of the signaller the driver would assume there is a problem if stopped somewhere you dont usually get held up - automatic signals that dont protect a staion, AHB etc, ie. its fairly obvious there is a problem ahead, and contact the signaller immidiatly. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 07:08 #39964 | |
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pilotman
189 posts |
Worth mentioning that numerous signals where the layout is busy (and or with 3rd rail electrification) have indication for the driver NOT to descend and use the phone.
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| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 09:24 #39965 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
Thanks for all the info! It sounds like the most realistic thing to do in Simsig is try to figure out if radios are likely to have been equipped for the area and era one is playing; if so, then wait for the train to be stopped at signal and then immediately authorize it via F2 (but not before it comes to a stand), or if not, then just wait for the phone call.
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| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 09:43 #39966 | |
moonraker
370 posts |
During my driving days if there was a TCF or signalling fault, unless it had just happened then 9 times out of 10 there would always be a member of S & T staff at the signal who could contact the controlling signaller/box. So maybe not so unrealistic as I can recall talking to a signaller to repeat instructions on the S & T chaps phone a few times
Last edited: 02/01/2013 at 09:43 by moonraker Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 13:17 #39983 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
At Bristol panel we used to use the station staff to give a message to the driver "There's a problem at <somewhere> so come straight on the phone when you get there". This was in the days before cab radio though. If the failure was in an auto section we used to stop the train at the last controlled signal and tell the driver to stop at the signal protecting the failure, irrespective of aspect, and to come straight on the phone. Didn't help with freight trains, unless they were having relief before the failure. Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 15:21 #39991 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
I remember when some of visted Rugby SCC the LOM mentioned that a recent rule change meant that drivers should contact the signaler immediately on coming to a stand at a red signal when they could see no obvious reason for being stopped. So perhaps using the train list is more realistic in that sense.
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 15:52 #39998 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
" said:... If the failure was in an auto section we used to stop the train at the last controlled signal and tell the driver to stop at the signal protecting the failure, irrespective of aspect, and to come straight on the phone. ...Often thought this could be a nice enhancement for SimSig, say another 2 responses "Driver, proceed to the [second] next signal and call me again immediately on your arrival there, please." I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 02/01/2013 at 16:39 #40000 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:" said:Or the one to inspect the opposite running line with the response of either "Driver, please proceed to signal XXX [user-configurable] and ring on arrival even if it is showing green" or "Driver, please inspect the opposite line from signal XXX and report from the signal after".... If the failure was in an auto section we used to stop the train at the last controlled signal and tell the driver to stop at the signal protecting the failure, irrespective of aspect, and to come straight on the phone. ...Often thought this could be a nice enhancement for SimSig, say another 2 responses "Driver, proceed to the [second] next signal and call me again immediately on your arrival there, please." “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: CTCThiago |
| Realism around passing signals 14/10/2013 at 04:31 #49950 | |
CTCThiago
232 posts |
" said:" said:that will be nice John." said:Or the one to inspect the opposite running line with the response of either "Driver, please proceed to signal XXX [user-configurable] and ring on arrival even if it is showing green" or "Driver, please inspect the opposite line from signal XXX and report from the signal after".... If the failure was in an auto section we used to stop the train at the last controlled signal and tell the driver to stop at the signal protecting the failure, irrespective of aspect, and to come straight on the phone. ...Often thought this could be a nice enhancement for SimSig, say another 2 responses "Driver, proceed to the [second] next signal and call me again immediately on your arrival there, please." Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 15/10/2013 at 11:17 #50019 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
SPT = Signal Point Telephone Full definition and links to other means of communication referred to in this thread will be found in the Simsig Wiki Glossary Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 15/10/2013 at 13:12 #50024 | |
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jc92
3690 posts
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" said:SPT = Signal Point Telephonesorry to be a Pendant, but Isnt it Signal POST telephone, stemming from them originally being located on the signal post, although nowadays there are more outlandish locations. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 15/10/2013 at 15:37 #50027 | |
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headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:It is indeed Signal Post Telephone.SPT = Signal Point Telephonesorry to be a Pendant, but Isnt it Signal POST telephone, stemming from them originally being located on the signal post, although nowadays there are more outlandish locations. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 11/11/2013 at 11:14 #51334 | |
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Essexgirl
42 posts |
In the real world with GSM-R the signaller can send a text message to the driver for him/her to contact the signaller. The driver will then do this as soon as they are in a position to do so, normally when they come to a stand, thus cutting down on waiting for the driver to call the signaller, although nowadays, I believe that most if not all routes, have a zero minute policy, in that drivers are to contact the siganller immediately they come to a stand at a red signal, unless there is an obvious reason (ie another train crossing in front at a junction). I used to work in a location with CSR and as siganllers we would contact the driver when ever we wanted to, even wityh them on the move, but this was an agreement we had with the train company, and their drivers. Log in to reply |
| Realism around passing signals 12/11/2013 at 11:25 #51402 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:In the real world with GSM-R the signaller can send a text message to the driver for him/her to contact the signaller. The driver will then do this as soon as they are in a position to do so, normally when they come to a stand, thus cutting down on waiting for the driver to call the signaller, although nowadays, I believe that most if not all routes, have a zero minute policy, in that drivers are to contact the siganller immediately they come to a stand at a red signal, unless there is an obvious reason (ie another train crossing in front at a junction). Rules have changed over the years and I think zero minutes is now in the Rule Book with an 'except where authorised' clause. In my day the Rule Book said wait 2 minutes before contacting the signalman. That could really mess things up in areas like the Enfield Town line; by the time the driver came on the phone, the train in rear of him was probably already approaching the red protecting him. By the time the 4th or 5th to phone in from the problem signal finally rang in, the SPT concentrator was probably looking like a 2-D Christmas tree. And as if that wasn't enough, those 1960s concentrators didn't give the signalman a choice which call to accept - it simply connected the next one in order of ringing in - so you probably had to answer 4 or 5 calls and tell those drivers to wait before you could finally get to the one who needed instructing - the one that would release the cork and let them all shuffle up a signal and start the whole thing again. Of course there was a time when there weren't any SPTs either. The 2 minute rule was derived from mechanical-era practice, when the requirement was to wait 2 minutes then send the fireman to the signalbox to remind the signalman (and perhaps receive instructions) in person. Of course, for the most part the home signal was within sight of the box so, if you needed to instruct the driver to pass at danger, you used a green handsignal (if the home was locked) or pulled off & stopped him at the box with a red handsignal. But I can think of one location (Biggleswade, on the GN Main Line, and I don't suppose it was the only one) where the up fast home was a colour light signal over 1/2 mile from the box and wasn't provided with a phone! I've more than once seen the secondman start his cold, rainy trudge only to have the signal clear once he'd got 300 yards or so. I suspect the driver wasn't strictly complying with the rules, as then written, when he drew up to collect the unfortunate secondman but hey, it saved at least a couple of minutes more so no-one ever objected... Log in to reply |