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| Questions about making a new sim 15/01/2013 at 22:31 #40616 | |
Andypops
9 posts |
Hi everybody, I have a few questions, that I hope people can help me with! I'm a relatively experienced player of SimSig (2-3 years now...), and I've enjoyed playing all of the sims which are (in some cases just about!) suitable for one player - such as lime street, euston, Gloucester, north Wales coast and Swindon / Bristol (when I feel brave!). However, I would like to "give something back", ideally by writing my own sim. I know this is a huge undertaking, and this isn't a snap decision but something which I have a goo amount of interest in, and also something which I would like to do more as a technical challenge for myself. I understand and am happy with the creation of timetables, and so mainly I would like to ask if anybody could give me any advice on how to go about creating the sim itself. For example, how do I create the sim layout, what information I need (eg signal numbers, positions, distances, etc), and whether there are any open sources of this information? Even if not open, I'm sure I can justify an expenditure on the track atlas...! So, in summary, if anyone can give me an introduction into how to create a new sim layout, I would be eternally grateful! Please PM me if necessary. All the best, Andy Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 15/01/2013 at 22:54 #40618 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
Have you read this Wiki topic: Can I Make My Own SimSig? Andypops said: For example, how do I create the sim layout, what information I need (eg signal numbers, positions, distances, etc), and whether there are any open sources of this information?Off the top of my head, the data needed would include: Signal and point locations, track circuit lengths, interlocking data, Train Describer data, and details of all the local quirks and procedures. This type of data is not available to the general public, nor will you find it in any atlas/Quail map. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 15/01/2013 at 22:54 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Andypops |
| Questions about making a new sim 20/05/2013 at 20:23 #44928 | |
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Andypops
9 posts |
Dear Steamer, Thanks for your reply. I did see it at the time, and thought fair enough. But, I've recently come across the sectional appendices for the region in question. These are up to date (or nearly so!). So now I have the distances, track structure / positions and local quirks. My next question - does anybody know where information regarding signal numbers, point numbers and track circuits can be found? Thanks, Andy Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 20/05/2013 at 20:25 #44929 | |
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Andypops
9 posts |
(and regarding interlocking - surely this can be (approximately) assumed from track layout / design, and information in the SA?)
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: andyb0607 |
| Questions about making a new sim 20/05/2013 at 22:08 #44934 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:(and regarding interlocking - surely this can be (approximately) assumed from track layout / design, and information in the SA?)No, not at all. These give no information regarding signal positioning or possible aspects; whether a signal can clear for all available routes or only some; how long the overlap (if any) is; approach control or other similar features; the position of track circuits (both physical and logical) and train describers... the list goes on. I think the only information the SA gives regarding signalling are the controlling signalbox, the direction of lines, and the method of working (AB, TCB, etc). " said: My next question - does anybody know where information regarding signal numbers, point numbers and track circuits can be found?In the relevant S&T office, or in the case of older information, possibly the collections of private individuals. Edit: The NRM, National Archives and other such places might also have some - but from what I've heard, they aren't always so good at handling signalling-related items... Last edited: 20/05/2013 at 22:28 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 20/05/2013 at 22:11 #44935 | |
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Andypops
9 posts |
Thanks. Kind of scuppers me then! But I will continue to search anyway.
Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 20/05/2013 at 23:12 #44938 | |
postal
5265 posts 
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" said:Thanks. Kind of scuppers me then! But I will continue to search anyway.To put some context to it, the writer of the Carlisle sim is professionally involved with railway signalling as his career. With that background as a headstart, the manual notes that the sim still took 4 years from the start of the development process to release of the first production version. This production version already has a re-write in process because of the previously unidentified bugs which SimSig users found after the first release. Looks like other hobbies and family life could be a write-off if you want to continue to search! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Andypops |
| Questions about making a new sim 21/05/2013 at 10:57 #44947 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
" said:" said:Thanks. Kind of scuppers me then! But I will continue to search anyway.<snip> You mean there are such things? 
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Questions about making a new sim 21/05/2013 at 19:49 #44969 | |
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Andypops
9 posts |
Lol! Well, I am pretty dedicated...! But I take the point. Thanks Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 22/05/2013 at 14:30 #45009 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Previous posts in this thread seem unnecessarily restrictive and discouraging to me. After all, for example, the timetables bundled with the Bristol sim contain the disclaimer Quote: Accurate diagrams have been used wherever possible, however some artistic licence has been applied to complete missing informationNotwithstanding the fact that this sim and bundled TT appear to be designed by different people, the use of the word "diagram" rather than "timetable" implies that this sim, not the timetable, does not pretend to be exactly prototypical of the era in question but is simply a best attempt and capable of further refinement if new data comes to light. I hope Andypops receives much more encouragement privately than has been displayed here and that we will see a playable, enjoyable simulation as a result. Surely professional experience isn't required to create a workable interlocking scheme in the absence of official data. Last edited: 22/05/2013 at 14:34 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 22/05/2013 at 15:04 #45010 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:the use of the word "diagram" rather than "timetable" implies that this sim, not the timetableA diagram is the set of workings that a specific loco, set of coaches, or DMU/EMU works in a day. Last edited: 22/05/2013 at 15:05 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 22/05/2013 at 15:35 #45012 | |
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postal
5265 posts
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" said:Previous posts in this thread seem unnecessarily restrictive and discouraging to me.Max I would hope that the comments made are actually designed as a dose of reality rather than unnecessarily restrictive. While the actual layouts and track diagrams in SimSig depict the real-life situation as accurately as possible, there are a number of fictional timetables available for various sims and a number of others contain disclaimers (like the Bristol TT you mention) that they are a a best guess because not all of the historic timetable and stock diagram data are available. There are more timetables available than sims because in the overall scheme of things writing a TT is a comparatively low-skilled job when compared with the creation of a simulation. That is not to denigrate TT writing which is a complex and demanding task, but it does not come near the skills required for sim development. For example, I have been around for long enough to have written my first programs in the early 1980s and have been involved with SimSig for about 10 years now. I can work with timetables and have helped on the technical side of a number of timetables where the writer has needed to find a way to make particular events take place. However I quite happily admit that I do not have the necessary depth of signalling or programming skills to even contemplate asking Geoff if I can take on some development. work. I do hope Andypops enjoys using SimSig but would suggest that he should perhaps try writing a TT for an existing sim first to get some idea of the depth of information required and the time and patience needed to make things work before looking to the development work a new sim requires. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 22/05/2013 at 20:55 by postal Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 22/05/2013 at 16:45 #45019 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
I may get shot for posting this, but here goes: If anyone wants to try making a Sim, have a play with the PC-Rail Development tools. I've had a go with it, and can confirm that it takes a lot of time to get even a basic simulation written. Then factor in the fact that SimSig contains far more features than PC-Rail (Overlaps, slots, accurate level crossings and gradients spring to mind, not to mention the various bespoke features we see on each SimSig simulation), and the scale of the work SimSig developers put in is much more apparent. maxand said: Surely professional experience isn't required to create a workable interlocking scheme in the absence of official dataThe only way to make an accurate simulation of an interlocking is to use official data. If guesswork and deductions come in, then the simulation becomes inaccurate. Overlaps are a perfect example: get them wrong and you have a simulation that is either too restrictive or too permissive than the real life interlocking. This in turn affects the difficulty of the simulation: too restrictive and the timetable becomes impossible, too permissive and the challenge is lost. While licence is sometimes used in timetables (for various reasons), you'll find that the actual simulation of the signalling system is almost 100% true-to-life, which is why I for one choose to play SimSig rather than the other simulations on the market. I'd also like to echo Postal's comments: no-one who has posted has actively discouraged Andypops, but neither have they attempted to hide the fact that to produce a simulation that's up to SimSig's standards requires a lot of work, time and data. Could I also point out that this topic is mostly academic since it's up to Geoff to decide whether or not he gives Andypops the program and permission needed to write a simulation. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, UKTrainMan, BarryM, GoochyB |
| Questions about making a new sim 22/05/2013 at 17:27 #45022 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
If anyone could make their own SimSig simulation, then you'd [hopefully] be signalling DLR trains across the whole of it's network by now - courtesy of me. This would include an era with the old Island Gardens station, too! (Ahhhh, the memories....  B) :woohoo:)Also, you'd probably have simulations at-least in development which cover each and every London termini and major station not already covered!! Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 17:54 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 08:01 #45040 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Interesting comments, thanks to all who responded to my post. Quote: A diagram is the set of workings that a specific loco, set of coaches, or DMU/EMU works in a day.I had no idea that's what "diagram" means in signalspeak, thanks Danny252. Having worked as a programmer, that side of it does not seem particularly difficult once one is familiar with whatever language is used to create the sim (here, Delphi). I should imagine that there are standard code templates already written and debugged for all the major bits such as junctions, signals, overlaps and interlocking, etc., and it would be just a matter of tweaking them for each individual situation, then combining and playtesting them. Not a great deal of rocket science involved. I can understand Geoff's reluctance to release any code or encourage imitations, as SimSig is very similar to his professional training software. There is the additional constraint that real life panels reflect less than ideal conditions; otherwise there would be dual lines between every station, under- or overpasses instead of level crossings, etc. But then, how is anyone other than the chosen few going to learn how to design a sim, not merely write a timetable? There seems no gradual learning path, more a vertical cliff. To my way of thinking, sims and their timetables should develop together. We should be able to build tiny, unrealistic sims with tiny timetables to get the feel of it, then progress to bigger and more realistic projects. I've said all this before and am aware of SimSig's policy, so I won't say much more about it, except to ask: How many members would the average model railway club attract if layouts and signalling had to be absolutely prototypical before a member could exhibit? I would like to see at least an extra forum section for experimental developers, open to all members, where code could be compared and refined, just as in most programming forums. Not much rocket science involved. This need not take up much of Geoff's time or that of serious developers; it might, dare I say it, attract other people with a programming background who would like to join skills with those of professional signallers, all for the common good. Who knows, someone might come up with improved alternative user interfaces, even bugfixes to save Geoff and the regulars a bit of time. Any sims produced need not be part of the official download until deemed worthy enough, but nevertheless made available on application. This by no means lowers SimSig's standards, but in fact raises them. (Added) I don't understand the reference to DLR trains here - no signalling required? That wouldn't be very challenging. Maybe not a good analogy. Thanks for the link to PC-Rail developer tools. I didn't know they were available and will look into them. However, I don't much like their sims or their business plan. "Developer tools" tend to be limiting and unsatisfying in that they consist of software written to extend an application, and not the same as the original raw code. I know of another signalling sim, completely freeware, in which the developer has given up further development and thrown the software open to anyone to develop further. This to me is the opposite extreme, and the sim needs a lot more work to make it as realistic as SimSig, though its graphical interface, like that of PC-Rail, is less primitive. Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 08:21 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 09:05 #45041 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Just took a quick look at PC-Rail's tools. Not bad; as Steamer said, certainly a way to get a feel for developing a sim. and the Conditions of Use seem like a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately, SimSig's sims are so standalone to deal with the idiosyncrasies of each location that I doubt whether a set of developer tools could be made comprehensive enough to accommodate all variations and vagaries. Therefore (sensibly) each sim is written from scratch. However, that's not to say that code snippets (as opposed to developer tools) would not be re-used extensively. This only means that, rather than being coddled by using a dedicated environment in which to create the layout (the US-based Train Dispatcher also provides developer tools), the would-be sim developer needs to learn the basic programming language itself (not that difficult, and much more powerful and satisfying). Although lots of fun for beginning sim developers, developer tools result in a "one size fits all" appearance. I would like to think that, in the fullness of time, programming in SimSig will become a lot easier and more accessible. Although a great language in its own time, Delphi is being superseded by more modern languages with more advanced feature sets and simpler, more powerful interfaces. For example, artificial intelligence (AI) will be easier to implement. This of course is totally separate from the additional requirement that a sim that claims to be authentic should model the real world situation with all its extra challenges. This involves the time-consuming and expensive task of gathering the necessary data to ensure accuracy, a jealously guarded commodity. 
Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 09:06 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 10:28 #45045 | |
jc92
3690 posts |
" said:If anyone could make their own SimSig simulation, then you'd [hopefully] be signalling DLR trains across the whole of it's network by now - courtesy of me. This would include an era with the old Island Gardens station, too! (Ahhhh, the memories....Cause for concern when you get a telephone call from a Driver waiting at a red signal? 
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Sam Tugwell |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 15:21 #45058 | |
GeoffM
6377 posts |
Here is a screenshot of the SimSig editor. Note that most developers do not touch Delphi code - in the early days there was a lot of custom code but over the years more and more has gone to data (not all developers are happy). Though Delphi might be a mature language, age itself is not a reason to dump a language. C and C++ are older, yet millions still write in those languages. I do enjoy writing some stuff in C# these days but I doubt that on its own would make anything any better in SimSig. Indeed the time taken to port it would take a couple of years (and don't get me started on language converters - the 80/20 rule applies). Edit: Hmm, odd, the colours changed in that attachment. Post has attachments. Log in to view them. SimSig Boss Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 15:22 by GeoffM Log in to reply The following users said thank you: wain77, Steamer, BarryM |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 17:16 #45062 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Though Delphi might be a mature language, age itself is not a reason to dump a language. C and C++ are older, yet millions still write in those languages. I do enjoy writing some stuff in C# these days but I doubt that on its own would make anything any better in SimSig. Indeed the time taken to port it would take a couple of years (and don't get me started on language converters - the 80/20 rule applies)To be honest, we've been through these points with Maxand so many times, it's probably not worth going over them again! Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 17:17 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DriverCurran |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 17:22 #45063 | |
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GeoffM
6377 posts |
" said:" said:I thought it was with someone else - though it could have been both I guess!Though Delphi might be a mature language, age itself is not a reason to dump a language. C and C++ are older, yet millions still write in those languages. I do enjoy writing some stuff in C# these days but I doubt that on its own would make anything any better in SimSig. Indeed the time taken to port it would take a couple of years (and don't get me started on language converters - the 80/20 rule applies)To be honest, we've been through these points with Maxand so many times, it's probably not worth going over them again! SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 17:27 #45064 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:" said:Hmm, now you say it, you might be right - but we've certainly been over the "Delphi works just as well as every other programming language" (if not better, due to being mature) point a fair few times!" said:I thought it was with someone else - though it could have been both I guess!Though Delphi might be a mature language, age itself is not a reason to dump a language. C and C++ are older, yet millions still write in those languages. I do enjoy writing some stuff in C# these days but I doubt that on its own would make anything any better in SimSig. Indeed the time taken to port it would take a couple of years (and don't get me started on language converters - the 80/20 rule applies)To be honest, we've been through these points with Maxand so many times, it's probably not worth going over them again! Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 17:49 #45065 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
" said:(Added) " said: If anyone could make their own SimSig simulation, then you'd [hopefully] be signalling DLR trains across the whole of it's network by now - courtesy of me. " said: no signalling required? That wouldn't be very challenging. Maybe not a good analogy.http://dodger.home.xs4all.nl/tech.htm http://www.railway-technical.com/Sigdock.shtml It may involve some level of artistic license where necessary or a representations of what it may look like with signals - but anyway, that's an example of what might be produced by a user were they able to. " said: " said:?????If anyone could make their own SimSig simulation, then you'd [hopefully] be signalling DLR trains across the whole of it's network by now - courtesy of me. This would include an era with the old Island Gardens station, too! (Ahhhh, the memories....Cause for concern when you get a telephone call from a Driver waiting at a red signal? :P Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Last edited: 23/05/2013 at 18:07 by UKTrainMan Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 18:49 #45068 | |
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jc92
3690 posts |
" said:DLR trains dont have drivers! (as far as I'm aware?) "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 18:55 #45069 | |
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Sacro
1171 posts |
" said:
DLR trains dont have drivers! (as far as I'm aware?)[/quote] They have 'staff' during the evenings, though I don't think they do more than let the train go, and press stop if there's an issue. Log in to reply |
| Questions about making a new sim 23/05/2013 at 19:05 #45070 | |
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jwsetford
164 posts |
JC92 wrote Quote: ???? Log in to reply |