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Unsafe reversing 19/04/2013 at 23:01 #43721 | |
vontrapp
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" said:In terms of protection, I'm a little surprised no-one has mentioned about either trap points or catch points.I thought catch points went long ago with unfitted trains. As for traps, Crow Nest Jn had them at the end of the down-loop and a freight train ran away. The signalman could have set the points and cleared the signals for it to 'run away' but he didn't. The train ended up at the bottom of the signal box steps. The block-inspector asked the Bobby why he'd booked the train arrived, to which he said the train couldn't arrive any closer to the box than it has! As for logging bell-signals, it would have been interesting when I worked on the railway because the only bell-signals I logged, in the train-register, were non-train bell-codes. In the train description I put the headcode, just as one would put in a train describer, which I did when working a fringe-box. When I went to work on the Man-vic/ Bury line, the bobbies 'snatched'; I was brought up with Bolton, Salford, Manchester and Bury absolute-block men, thus I received mixed training (I didn't go to signalling-school) but I never snatched. One of the bell-signals I learnt was 1-1. Does anyone know or have come across this? Adrian Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 07:47 #43726 | |
jc92
![]() 3653 posts |
there are still plenty of catch points about (I was looking at earles sidings last night which still has at least one set in the block section). trains dont have to break away to run away backwards (as we saw at shap with that class 92). 1-1 is signaller required on telephone "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 08:23 #43730 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
1-2 always seemed a more sensible choice for that one - 1-1 sounds far too much like 2, especially where the sarcasm card is often played...! Very few boxes didn't (or don't) record the routine 'train' bell signals (ILC/TES/TOS), even if the actual ILC bell signal used (4 or 3-1 etc.) wasn't indicated (just inferred from the headcode booked), so that suggestion puzzles me somewhat. Probably a regional term, but I've never heard of.'snatching' around our way - what's that? Tom Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 09:22 #43733 | |
Ron_J
![]() 330 posts |
Around here trains are always entered into the book with the Is Line Clear and the headcode, so: "4 1A57" or "2L82 3-1" depending on personal preference (I was a bell-then-headcode man).
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Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 09:33 #43734 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
We do the same (invariably headcode then bell), but it seems conceivable that some areas might not bother, I suppose!
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Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 10:52 #43736 | |
jc92
![]() 3653 posts |
at peak rail (admittedly a heritage railway only) we book the code in the first column, then mark the reporting number in the remarks column, along with the loco/unit working the service. ive seen this on a couple of TRBs from ER areas, like one i have for maltby in 2003 aswell so its definetely from "proper" practice. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 20/04/2013 at 10:53 by jc92 Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 11:09 #43737 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
That's how we traditionally do it on the GC (minus the loco/stock details, which thoroughly disinterest most of us anyway!), but I do see the merit in leaving the remarks column free for remarks!
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Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 12:08 #43742 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
The NYMR do a similar thing with headcode/engine number. However, it seems the SVR is the odd one out - there is no reporting number or headcode for an individual train, although the coach set gets a designation for the day, to indicate its service, of the form "CS1", where "C" is the timetable, "S" is the end it starts at (North or South), and "1" is its order of its first departure in the morning (so CS1 is the first off Kidderminster, CS2 is the next, and CN1 is the first from Bridgnorth, all on table C). Also, we don't know the loco number until it chuffs (or growls or clanks or rolls) around the corner! Those who do want to identify trains do it be their departure time from their origin (12:30KR, 12:25BY, 10:55BH), but plenty of signalmen don't bother. 1-2 is widely accepted as the telephone code, although it's entirely unofficial (pretty sure I've both send and received it with inspectors in the next box, though!). Last edited: 20/04/2013 at 12:12 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 14:14 #43748 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:Presumably only at locations where "ILC for Branch Freight?" isn't authorised? Or were these trains generally asked with the normal code because the signalmen knew the timetable anyway? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 17:26 #43752 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
" said:The NYMR do a similar thing with headcode/engine number.We don't use headcodes or reporting codes at Llangollen, so I don't think the SVR is the odd one out. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 18:02 #43754 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
" said:" said:You need a branch line junction somewhere nearby, and special authorisation for the bell code, to have a branch freight! I've very rarely come across locations that actually used the signal - if the "branch" has enough freight trains going down it for it to need a separate signal for routing, you're getting close to needing full routing codes anyway (as 1-2 contains no information as to what the class/headlamps of the train are).Presumably only at locations where "ILC for Branch Freight?" isn't authorised? Or were these trains generally asked with the normal code because the signalmen knew the timetable anyway? Quote: We don't use headcodes or reporting codes at Llangollen, so I don't think the SVR is the odd one out.Quite right - from memory, the Llangollen signalling is actually pretty similar to the SVR. Last edited: 20/04/2013 at 18:04 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 20/04/2013 at 20:39 #43757 | |
vontrapp
![]() 210 posts |
In our area, on AB, most signalmen booked the train bell-code in the first column with the headcode in the last column of the train-book. I didn't. As for 1-1 bell-code, this was used only by a few signalmen (and me) as an acknowledgement to TOS and then call attention. In other words, in slack working, signalman B would bang out 2-1. If signalman A had a train to pass on to B the he would give 2 beats (1-1) to B and he would acknowledge it with call attention. Sig. A would then pass on the required train be1l-code. Snatching was/is a dangerous way of signalling trains. Signalman B would bang out 2-1 and then turn the com to LC irrespective if sig.A had a train or not. I thought 1-2 was to get a signalman on the phone? We never used it because we used 1 flat beat on the block-bell for that purpose. As for semaphore signalling, if we didn't have a road, the outer and inner home-signals would be pulled off slowly. If we wanted the driver on the phone, we would wobble the home-signal up and down a few times. Adrian Last edited: 20/04/2013 at 20:40 by vontrapp Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
Unsafe reversing 21/04/2013 at 13:39 #43783 | |
kbarber
![]() 1724 posts |
" said:In our area, on AB, most signalmen booked the train bell-code in the first column with the headcode in the last column of the train-book. I didn't.Hoho. How 'twas really done! 1-1 was an official signal in some areas, usually those with a block phone (telephone handsets wired in the block bell circuit). Most boxes at the south end of the Midland Main Line had them so this was in regular use. The beats were usually given as flat ones. It didn't do to have the handset at your ear if the other box pressed his key - the crash was impressive to say the least. Around the North London and the Great Central (what was left of it) 1-2 was used but this was to call you to the omnibus phone; there weren't block phones on those lines. A flat one was reputedly in use on the Great Eastern section (though I never visited outside the London area); Gerry Fiennes ('I Tried to Run a Railway' ![]() What you call 'snatching' was a procedure I've heard of called 'Sunday Block' around the North London lines; it was facilitated no end by the management's determination to save money by restricting the grades of signalmen, hence most boxes around there booked passing times only and then only for trains other than class 2 passenger. The result was that a long Sunday occupied with 3 trains an hour in each direction (just about time to read the paper by the end of the shift) had nothing in the book but signing on & off! At Acton Wells it was even more hair-raising. We had an IB signal in rear on the up from Acton Central. There were instructions that it was not used in fog or falling snow, so there was a switch on the block shelf to switch the home normal control out of the block circuit. The home & starter had contra-sequential locking so you couldn't let a train on to the junction until you'd cleared the road off it, but the line clear release was on the starter only. The upshot was that on Sunday you operated the fog switch, then for up trains you waited until you got 2-1 from High Level Junction before giving 2-1 back to Acton Central (just knocked out without call attention) then immediately 3-1-2 to accept the next passenger he hadn't offered you, followed by letting the home back far enough to clear the block then pulling it again!!!!!!! ![]() When I think about it now it's enough to make even my hair curl... but we all did it, including one or two people who ended up in quite senior positions. Thankfully all was swept away when they abolished Acton Central and put a panel in the Wells in the early '80s - whereupon the signalmen got the grade C I reckon we deserved years before. (You knew you'd done a shift in that box, I can tell you!) Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 21/04/2013 at 15:33 #43790 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
" said:Aha, now I see where the different codes come from. All is explained! On the omnibus phone side, 1-2 is far easier than "buzzing" up the other guy with his code - he knows immediately who wants to talk to him, it avoids waking up everyone on the 'bus circuit as the thing starts ringing, and it means that no one else knows you're on the phone and therefore stops then picking up the handset for a listen! Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 21/04/2013 at 20:07 #43806 | |
vontrapp
![]() 210 posts |
When I acknowledged train-out-of-section with 1 beat, I believe this to be some obscure working from the L&Y era. Also, it is similar to permissive working but only on the TOS side of things. Maybe it was brought over from Bury or Manchester Deal street. I know that there was a crossover of signalmen from Bolton Great Moor St Station (L&NWR) to Trinity St (L&YR). Anyway, since I never went to signalling school, I picked up a mixture of bell-codes and peculiar movements. Also, one had to know why the rules and regulations were in place so as to know how to 'bend' them. One peculiarity, which today, isn't done is: 'shunting into forward section' without using the block or bells. In my day 3-3-2 had to be authorised so that meant there was no AB rule to get round it, although a section-signal could be PAD for shunting purposes. One day I had an engine to assist going through my xover from the D to the U but the dummy was locked by the block because the S&T had abolished my starting-signal! I pulled the cross-over and told the driver to pass the dummy at danger and enter the section ahead. His boss chirped in and said I should send the loco on as a 2-3, give TES and then cancel it off 3-5, once the engine has been withdrawn. I said no. The 3-5 signal can only be sent if one finds out that the train is not going to proceed. I said the train has proceeded into the forward-section and then been withdrawn. My block-inspector backed me up all the way. Some will say we were was wrong and some will say we were correct. The use of the 3.3.2 bell-code was used in short-sections, to my knowledge, because the SB ahead would be able to see the shunt. Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 09:36 #43815 | |
kbarber
![]() 1724 posts |
" said:When I acknowledged train-out-of-section with 1 beat, I believe this to be some obscure working from the L&Y era. Also, it is similar to permissive working but only on the TOS side of things. Maybe it was brought over from Bury or Manchester Deal street. All sorts of obscure things crept in from earlier eras, often altered to suit the needs of the day. F'rinstance, the old GWR gave train out of section without calling attention and without answering. A thread some years ago on the Blower http://www.signalbox.org/forum/index.php (which, incidentally, I can't reccommend too highly) told how that had developed on the West of England main line. By the 1970s the practice there had become to give one beat and drop the needle, and not to answer. If 'company' arrived unexpectedly there was a degree of cover - if you got 1 when you were expecting TOS you just answered it and your mate would know he had to give the 2-1 as well. Of course the inspectors knew what went on and watched the needle; if it dropped immediately they knew they'd caught a bloke out. But of course the job was being worked 'properly' so there was no action. Everybody played the game and you just accepted it if you did get caught out too badly. " said: I know that there was a crossover of signalmen from Bolton Great Moor St Station (L&NWR) to Trinity St (L&YR). Anyway, since I never went to signalling school, I picked up a mixture of bell-codes and peculiar movements. Also, one had to know why the rules and regulations were in place so as to know how to 'bend' them. Very much a matter of interpretation, I'd say. In the London Division the view was that if Reg 31 wasn't authorised you signalled the move on the block then cancelled it off when it was withdrawn. The train is definitely not going to proceed; the fact that it was never intended to is irrelevant. Working as you used to was a factor in the Ardsley collision of 1959, report here http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=1023 although the signalman forgetting the train (and the crew not carrying out R55 as it then was) were the primary factors. The Inspecting Officer noted that the new Block Regs would have a regulation covering this kind of move and some of us believe the decision to make it 'only where authorised' was not particularly sensible. 3-3-2 wasn't only for short sections. After West Hampstead was abolished in early 1978, Finchley Road worked with Cricklewood (about 2 3/4 miles distant). 3-3-2 was authorised at Cricklewood on the up goods (and saw a lot of use, 3 or 4 times in an hour at busy times, as freights came off the Acton Branch and drew forward to set back into the Empty Wagon Sidings). (Incidentally it was the Permissive Block variation where you put the block straight to TOL and the move was made under the authority of a calling on arm.) I believe the reason for having a separate regulation is that a 3-3-2 doesn't require a clearing point at the advance box, thus the move doesn't hamper the working there. In my experience it was authorised where such moves were frequent and where the layout at the advance box meant a clearing point would restrict the working there. Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 13:30 #43819 | |
jc92
![]() 3653 posts |
" said:think I agree with Keith and this guys boss on this one, it should be offered, given TES then withdrawn. 3-5 isnt just cancelling a train that hasnt proceeded, its also for cancelling a train that has been drawnback (as with a train terminating and reversing in a through station) or for situations such as this. the box in advance can protect the loco with the block should any distraction occur. In fact I have used this method for signalling a passenger train into a station (with clearing point provided) then withdrawing it with 3-5 when drawn back as ECS. rather ironically, if you ever get a chance to view the L&Y signalling school, which is the one you would have trained on at Man Vic, you could potentially see it done (I did it last december with a parcels shunt into forward section because i had a mental block and couldnt remember the code for Shunt into forward section :whistle: ) "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 22/04/2013 at 13:34 by jc92 Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 15:48 #43821 | |
headshot119
![]() 4869 posts |
" said:" said:Not just when it's drawn back, but also when shut inside at intermediate ground frames.think I agree with Keith and this guys boss on this one, it should be offered, given TES then withdrawn. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 18:04 #43825 | |
vontrapp
![]() 210 posts |
So we have 2 ways of doing the same job; I know that some Manchester signalmen also PAD the signal without using the block, too. :huh: I didn't know the signalling school was still there at Victoria. If it is, I'll be having a look! Last edited: 22/04/2013 at 18:05 by vontrapp Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 18:26 #43828 | |
jc92
![]() 3653 posts |
" said:it isnt lol. it retired in 95 and has been maintained and operated at york NRM, having just celebrated its centenary! "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 20:29 #43842 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
" said:" said:Done for every terminator at Exeter West as well. Surely belling a passenger train as a "Shunt" is even more wrong than cancelling a train that was never going through!3-5 isnt just cancelling a train that hasnt proceeded, its also for cancelling a train that has been drawnback (as with a train terminating and reversing in a through station) or for situations such as this. the box in advance can protect the loco with the block should any distraction occur. In fact I have used this method for signalling a passenger train into a station (with clearing point provided) then withdrawing it with 3-5 when drawn back as ECS. Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 20:39 #43843 | |
Steamer
![]() 3958 posts ![]() |
" said:" said:I thought 3-2-3 (Train drawn back clear of section) was for these circumstances?" said:Done for every terminator at Exeter West as well. Surely belling a passenger train as a "Shunt" is even more wrong than cancelling a train that was never going through!3-5 isnt just cancelling a train that hasnt proceeded, its also for cancelling a train that has been drawnback (as with a train terminating and reversing in a through station) or for situations such as this. the box in advance can protect the loco with the block should any distraction occur. In fact I have used this method for signalling a passenger train into a station (with clearing point provided) then withdrawing it with 3-5 when drawn back as ECS. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 21:48 #43850 | |
vontrapp
![]() 210 posts |
Lucock to the rescue ![]() Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 22:17 #43853 | |
Late Turn
![]() 697 posts |
" said:I thought 3-2-3 (Train drawn back clear of section) was for these circumstances? 3-2-3 is used only in connection with a train running round in section (the reg number escapes me). I agree that 3-5 would definitely have been the right thing to do where the use of 3-3-2 wasn't authorised (not a problem, on the big railway at least, now that its use is allowed without specific authorisation). Log in to reply |
Unsafe reversing 22/04/2013 at 23:32 #43854 | |
vontrapp
![]() 210 posts |
3.3.1 Cancelling If a train is not going to proceed but is line clear or train entering section has been acknowledged by the signaller at signal box B, you must place the relevant signals to danger, and send cancelling. One can read this both ways: Either the train has not entered the section ahead or it has (I know it hasn't) If it hasn't, the signals are placed to danger and 3-5 is sent. If the train has entered the section ahead, the signals are placed to danger and 3-5 is sent.Impossible! Therefore: 3-5 cannot be sent and neither can a train, on AB, go wrong-road and be withdrawn under AB working with the use of 3-5. The train has proceeded. Now, what you do in your signal-boxes is up to you and backed-up with your bosses but I query whether your bosses know the proper ways of signalling. I have come across LOMs/MOMs who visited my signal-boxes and I asked the questions and thet didn't know the answers. Last edited: 22/04/2013 at 23:48 by vontrapp Log in to reply |