Advance Ticket Query

If the guard does not accept the ticket, can I just buy a single to Swansea? Or would it be a fine?

Penalty fares are a civil matter not a criminal one.

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

Burden of proof lies with the plaintiff

You won't actually need to buy an extra ticket.

If the guard does not accept the ticket, can I just buy a single to Swansea? Or would it be a fine?

I'm not sure how lenient Arriva Trains Wales are.

Worst case scenario would be that you would have to buy a new ticket.

If you have any more questions about fares and ticketing, RailForums.co.uk has a Fares & Routeing Experts Exchange which is visited by people knowledgeable in this kind of thing and would be a more suitable place to ask.

" said:

If you have any more questions about fares and ticketing, RailForums.co.uk has a Fares & Routeing Experts Exchange which is visited by people knowledgeable in this kind of thing and would be a more suitable place to ask.

I've been a Ticket Office clerk for the past 9 years.

…
- Yes, but this isn't a penalty fare area, so he'd be in the breach of bylaw 18 (1), which is a criminal matter.

Quote:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

…

18.
Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i)
there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii)
there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii)
an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

The ticket office will be closed at the time I intend to travel, but there is a ticket machine. Not sure if that makes a difference.

I'm not quite sure how 3(i) can help?

ATW let you buy a ticket on the train even if there are facilities to buy at the station.

" said:

You won't actually need to buy an extra ticket. I presume the train your taking from Llanelli would of been the same train from Clunderwen?

As the ticket is routed FGW & Connections your taking a connecting train to meet the FGW part of the journey, hence you.

If the first train is the "and connections" bit then it is not limited to a specific train. But it IS limited to a particular station pair - and according to the rules I posted earlier, boarding at a different station is not allowed on that particular type of ticket.

" said:

Just see the conductor as soon as you board the train at Llanelli and explain your situation. Theres a 1% chance that you'll need to buy a ticket, alot of conductors prefer the honesty.

But that probably is good advice as honesty can equal a happy compromise.

" said:

*NO*, do not recommend fare evasion to a minor (I'm guessing by the child fare).

Whatever else it is it's not fare evasion within the meaning of Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

In any event Llanelli station is (according to ATW's web site) not a penalty fare station (see section 7 of Penalty Fares rules) so you can't be fines for getting on the train without a valid ticket.

Penalty fares are a civil matter not a criminal one.

Penalty fares may well be a civil matter, but watch just how quickly they withdraw the offer to pay a penalty fare and go for a prosecution if you fail to pay.


" said:

This is a strict liability issue, it'd be up to the passenger to prove that he obeyed the ticketing restrictions, not to the operator to prove he didn't.

Burden of proof lies with the plaintiff - remember the Vicky Price Jury where Mr Justice Sweeney said: "There is no burden on the defence to prove her innocence, on the contrary there's no burden on the defence to prove anything at all."


Peter

At best expect to be charged the full anytime single to your destination £65.75, and at worse be reported for prosecution.

" said:

At best expect to be charged the full anytime single to your destination £65.75, and at worse be reported for prosecution.

What is the legal position if the potential traveller in this instance then said when challenged after boarding the train at Llanelli with a pre-booked ticket from Clunderwen that he/she had been caught out by not understanding the small print and would only go to Swansea as he/she wished to return home as he/she could not afford the full excess of £65.75 to Padd?

" said:

At best expect to be charged the full anytime single to your destination £65.75, and at worse be reported for prosecution.

What is the legal position if the potential traveller in this instance then said when challenged after boarding the train at Llanelli with a pre-booked ticket from Clunderwen that he/she had been caught out by not understanding the small print and would only go to Swansea as he/she wished to return home as he/she could not afford the full excess of £65.75 to Padd?

Realistically they'd have no leg to stand on, lack of understanding the small print isn't generally accepted as a valid excuse.

Whether they choose to go to Swansea or Paddington or anywhere else, the offence has been committed and the small matter of fares owed turns into a larger matter of it being taken to court.

I think that you can excess an advance fare to the cheapest walk up fare, that would probably be the best option, better to go and do it at the ticket office as well, get it sorted before boarding.

Quote:

Burden of proof lies with the plaintiff

- Not in this case, strict liability

" said:

Realistically they'd have no leg to stand on, lack of understanding the small print isn't generally accepted as a valid excuse.

Whether they choose to go to Swansea or Paddington or anywhere else, the offence has been committed and the small matter of fares owed turns into a larger matter of it being taken to court.

I think that you can excess an advance fare to the cheapest walk up fare, that would probably be the best option, better to go and do it at the ticket office as well, get it sorted before boarding.

An answer m'learned friends would respect and it completely addresses the situation until you are a conductor faced with the problem. The imagined passenger is clearly in error. However, once informed that he is liable to a full excess for the fare from Clunderwen to Padd what is the situation if the imagined passenger then does not wish to pay that amount but is willing to pay the full fare for the use he is making of the railway (i.e. a trip from Llanelli to Swansea) as he now no longer wishes to travel to Padd due to the cost. At that stage our passenger is no longer wishing to use his/her pre-booked ticket. How is that legally differentiated from another passenger who boards at Llanelli without a ticket wishing only to travel to Swansea?

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage only state

"Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey."

The full single fare for what journey, the one on an invalid ticket, or the journey the passenger wishes to make once informed of the full cost of his original journey? If the latter applies then there can be no question of a court case as the passenger has discharged all of his/her responsibilities once the fare for the actual journey carried out is handed over. That is the question I originally posed and which has not yet been answered.

" said:

Realistically they'd have no leg to stand on, lack of understanding the small print isn't generally accepted as a valid excuse.

Whether they choose to go to Swansea or Paddington or anywhere else, the offence has been committed and the small matter of fares owed turns into a larger matter of it being taken to court.

I think that you can excess an advance fare to the cheapest walk up fare, that would probably be the best option, better to go and do it at the ticket office as well, get it sorted before boarding.

An answer m'learned friends would respect and it completely addresses the situation until you are a conductor faced with the problem. The imagined passenger is clearly in error. However, once informed that he is liable to a full excess for the fare from Clunderwen to Padd what is the situation if the imagined passenger then does not wish to pay that amount but is willing to pay the full fare for the use he is making of the railway (i.e. a trip from Llanelli to Swansea) as he now no longer wishes to travel to Padd due to the cost. At that stage our passenger is no longer wishing to use his/her pre-booked ticket. How is that legally differentiated from another passenger who boards at Llanelli without a ticket wishing only to travel to Swansea?

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage only state

"Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey."

The full single fare for what journey, the one on an invalid ticket, or the journey the passenger wishes to make once informed of the full cost of his original journey? If the latter applies then there can be no question of a court case as the passenger has discharged all of his/her responsibilities once the fare for the actual journey carried out is handed over. That is the question I originally posed and which has not yet been answered.

IF you were to apply common sense* to the situation, the ticket provides passage an a particular train from point A to Point C. If someone boards the correct train at an intermediate point, they are actually overpaying on their ticket, as they are occupying the same agreed space, but for a shorter period of the journey, thereby not inconveniencing the TOC.

obviously common sense doesnt apply any more, and we have to get into a massive technical debate about it nowadays, but on a personal note I have done this plenty of times myself without issue, although thats no guarantee. (Probably becuase the conductors don't realise it's not allowed and just go along with it).

*common sense was something that existed but seems to have been slowly phased out in the last 15 years or so.

IF you were to apply common sense* to the situation, the ticket provides passage an a particular train from point A to Point C. If someone boards the correct train at an intermediate point, they are actually overpaying on their ticket, as they are occupying the same agreed space, but for a shorter period of the journey, thereby not inconveniencing the TOC.

obviously common sense doesnt apply any more, and we have to get into a massive technical debate about it nowadays, but on a personal note I have done this plenty of times myself without issue, although thats no guarantee. (Probably becuase the conductors don't realise it's not allowed and just go along with it).

*common sense was something that existed but seems to have been slowly phased out in the last 15 years or so.

IF you were to apply common sense* to the situation, the ticket provides passage an a particular train from point A to Point C. If someone boards the correct train at an intermediate point, they are actually overpaying on their ticket, as they are occupying the same agreed space, but for a shorter period of the journey, thereby not inconveniencing the TOC.

obviously common sense doesnt apply any more, and we have to get into a massive technical debate about it nowadays, but on a personal note I have done this plenty of times myself without issue, although thats no guarantee. (Probably becuase the conductors don't realise it's not allowed and just go along with it).

*common sense was something that existed but seems to have been slowly phased out in the last 15 years or so.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage only state

"Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.