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| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 16:15 #44413 | |
afro09
167 posts |
Is it just me or has attention to detail when reading a timetable and signallers caring about the end of sim scores gone by the way-side? In a lot of recent games I have joined and hosted I have seen huge increase in "xxxx has wrong route set" and "xxxx has received an adverse change of aspect" messages. For instance, in the Kings Cross sim I've been hosting from 0325 to 1730 sim time there has been 30 ACOA's and 15 wrong routes set and 38 other points lost so far. Is this due to people not paying attention to detail when reading train TT's anymore? Is it that signallers don't care about the end of sim score? or is it to do with user contribute TT's not having the correct information in them? I remember at one stage to give a driver an ACOA was a crime in multiplayer games and everyone wanted to keep the sim score as high as possible. So far I have not had any problem with reading any user contributed TT I have downloaded so this, coupled with some signallers asking where to signal trains to instead of reading the TT makes me think it is all down to attention to detail. I would like to hear the opinion of others on this! Alan. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 17:21 #44415 | |
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Late Turn
697 posts 
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Personally I don't care too much for the percentage score itself, but - especially given that Simsig's the most realistic signalling sim - I'm always keen to run the job properly. Anyone who, in reality, had 30 COAs and 15 wrong routes in a month, even a year, would, I'm sure, be carefully contemplating their future! I've never had much to do with general multiplayer sessions, other than at the Derby meets, mostly because it's difficult to commit to a session for a decent length of time. I can't help but get the impression, from the forums and the odd bit of bickering on the shoutbox, that many such sessions are all about running the sim as quickly as possible, with the main 'enjoyment' coming from slavishly pulling off for trains to run on their booked path, and woe betide anyone who dares to think ahead and perhaps change platforms to avoid a conflict that they've spotted on the horizon. For me, the enjoyment's in the art of regulating - there's nothing worse than sitting there for an hour just pulling off for a succession of trains along a straight route (East Notts workstation on Trent  ) - and generally doing the job properly, accepting the consequences of one's errors (i.e. not putting back in front of one when you change your mind), preferably at 1x speed so you've got chance to think through the regulating decisions properly rather than having to reset the route across the junction in a split second so you don't check the next train approaching at a 'scale' 400mph.Just my thoughts - perhaps a little outdated, but there you have it. Tom Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 17:24 #44416 | |
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Wells
82 posts |
were this sim come from as not seen it on th site
Paul Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 17:51 #44418 | |
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John
884 posts |
It's not a Reading sim - the thread is about people reading timetables properly.
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| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 17:57 #44419 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts
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" said:were this sim come from as not seen it on th siteThe only sims mentioned in either post are Kings Cross and Trent, both of which are available in the download area. As to the point of the thread - reading timetables - it's a huge bugbear of mine, especially when I do it myself. But then I am my biggest critic. Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 17:57 #44420 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts
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" said:It's not a Reading sim - the thread is about people reading timetables properly.Oh the irony! 
Planotransitophobic! Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 18:13 #44421 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
I took part in a Kings Cross 1985 multiplayer session a few months back where the player on the 'Cross asked immediatly if he could re-platform. Faults and failures were off and there was no bad weather. What with the amount of loco swaps and shunts it soon desceneded into chaos as trains were needlessly re-platformed which put many of the 'double shunt' loco moves out and vice-versa (Locos TT'd to shunt from 1 to 3 when the stock had been put in 7 for instance.) I think the point I am getting at is that it was totally unneccasry for this as there was no reason not to follow the timetable! The other common occurence on Kings Cross is wrong routing of down trains at Alexandra Palace and Hitchin. It seemed to me it was purely people failing to read the timeteble before routing the train. As a client it didnt neccesarily have any impact on my enjoyment of the session though (my panel was running like clockwork ) but I can see how it could get frustrating to a host who is trying for a good score.
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| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 18:15 #44422 | |
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panpantom
12 posts |
No players have their competencies measured so how can you design a benchmark that will deliver a level of excellence in any game. If a hosting includes 'beginners welcome' in the description then good luck to everyone who joins and I'd expect help and advice to anyone who showed willing. A good score is bonus to an enjoyable multiplayer game. If a hosting requests 'only experienced players need join' then I don't. If a hosting requests 'l33t only' then I'd feel sad for their home life. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 19:14 #44427 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
" said:I'm always keen to run the job properly. Anyone who, in reality, had 30 COAs and 15 wrong routes in a month, even a year, would, I'm sure, be carefully contemplating their future" said: I can't help but get the impression, from the forums and the odd bit of bickering on the shoutbox, that many such sessions are all about running the sim as quickly as possible, with the main 'enjoyment' coming from slavishly pulling off for trains to run on their booked path, and woe betide anyone who dares to think ahead and perhaps change platforms to avoid a conflict that they've spotted on the horizon. For me, the enjoyment's in the art of regulating - there's nothing worse than sitting there for an hour just pulling off for a succession of trains along a straight route (East Notts workstation on TrentTom, I am the same, I don't mind player using their heads by reading the TT of 2 trains, noticing they clash and regulating the situation as I do this my self and as a multiplayer host I don't take control of a panel so I can regulate with clients while they signal but as dwelham313 said above re-platforming for no reason and constant ACOA's do get on my nerves as it is not the realistic way of doing things. " said: I took part in a Kings Cross 1985 multiplayer session a few months back where the player on the 'Cross asked immediatly if he could re-platform. Faults and failures were off and there was no bad weather. What with the amount of loco swaps and shunts it soon desceneded into chaos as trains were needlessly re-platformed which put many of the 'double shunt' loco moves out and vice-versa (Locos TT'd to shunt from 1 to 3 when the stock had been put in 7 for instance.) I think the point I am getting at is that it was totally unneccasry for this as there was no reason not to follow the timetable!dwelham, it is just failing to read the TT's correctly at Alexandra palace and hitichin. But at Cross it is frusrtrating when people re-platform for no reason then cause chaos and a back log of trains. I have no problem if it is done by mistake or by a newcomer then its a cause of regulate and get on with it. " said: No players have their competencies measured so how can you design a benchmark that will deliver a level of excellence in any game.panpantom, I agree there is no way to measure competencies or would I ever in any of my game request a level of competency in any of my games. my point is that yes newcomers and beginers don't know everything and need assistance and will make mistakes. but when people join 10 - 15 multiplayer sessions over a 2 week period and are still asking where trains go to is kinda irritating as if they read the tt and make mistakes they will learn, if they never read a TT then they will never learn and always just ask. end of quotes lol! the point of this thread is that I like to make sims I host as enjoyable as possible by making them as realistic as possible. I don't expect that if a tt says SL then it must stay on the slow line of course signallers can regulate and use both lines and all platforms as they see fit! but to route a train from a main line to a branch before looking at the TT the knocking the signal back in the drivers face is a bit annoying as its not the realistic way of doing things! the realistic way would be to check the TT first, then if you wrong route by mistake, wait until the driver calls you so you can tell him you are putting the signal back! also with the sims like Kings Cross, Alexandra Palace to Stevenage can be done by main line or by loop, if a train TT'd to go main line is sent over the loop it adds more to the hosts workload as when the train gets to Stevenage it will not step up to its next working as Ety service has not passed its schedualed timing points meaning the host then has to step up the TT manually. Alan. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 20:31 #44432 | |
Temple Meads
307 posts |
I fall somewhere in the middle, when I host I don't pay too much attention to F5, I just like the sim to rum smoothly, however if people cause too many ACOA's I do get annoyed, one or two, or more on a busy complex panel can be forgiven, but if they aren't checking the TT properly after that then they probably aren't paying enough attention.
Username TIM in multiplayer Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 20:42 #44433 | |
Peter Bennet
5375 posts |
When I ran games, a few years ago now, it was generally Kings Cross 1985 with all the add-ons. Normally it descended into chaos quite quickly and we just came back for more week after week. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 08/05/2013 at 23:19 #44444 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
" said:When I ran games, a few years ago now, it was generally Kings Cross 1985 with all the add-ons. Normally it descended into chaos quite quickly and we just came back for more week after week.That does sound fun Peter, I enjoy the 1985 TT so I must try it with the add-ons. Alan. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 11:12 #44455 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
One should not be too hard on would be signallers who wrong route, put signals back in front of trains and cause delays through bad regulating. As most of you know I,m currently hosting Cambridge with a 1985 timetable that I,ve adapted for multiplay. Apart from the odd train that departs a location a minute or two late for no reason it is possible to run the sim for 24 hours with no delays. The point being it was running at only 90% the last time I looked. There are a number of reasons why operators cause delay. In multiplay they cannot access the timetable (F4)so their ability to regulate has certain limitations. This is especially true of the March Panel in the Cambridge Sim. It should be the host,s responsibilty to advise the operator although this may not always be possible as the host,s duties are many. Probably the most common reason is training. Real Signallers spend days, weeks and even months learning both their area of control and the timetable. Kings Cross from the Dole queue to passing out is around 18 months. An operator may not have even played that Sim before, never mind that panel. Another reason is failing to clear a stop signal in sufficient time to prevent the train braking. As a rule of thumb the next signal in front of the train should be green, more so in Track Circuit block areas. Setting the Route too soon is another. This can cause crossings to remain closed to road traffic too long and incur a penalty or too delay another train that the operator was not aware of when he set the route. Which brings us back to my rule of thumb. One final reason is the Sim Speed. The Higher it is the less time the operator has to react to changes on his panel which can also lead to delays. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 11:54 #44456 | |
jc92
3635 posts
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" said:In multiplay they cannot access the timetable (F4)so their ability to regulate has certain limitations.timetables can be viewed by clicking on the TD? unless you're referring to trains entering when a route has already been set in front of them, in which case newer sims have the provision of a simplifier. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 11:55 #44457 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
For me, the challenge of SimSig is about the regulation of trains. I'd much rather play a scenario with delays than with failures. The wrong failure can stop the job - delays just make it interesting. Before I started testing (and at times timetable writing), I was a regular on multiplayer games. Although I am not a professional, I found I could happily run a busy junction panel (I prefer Finsbury panel on Kings Cross than Cross itself as an example). The frustration comes when either the amount of delays and failures together make the sim unplayable, or people just don't read the small things in the timetables (like where it says SL, or if a location is a calling point rather than a pass time) - although the latter could be helped by TT writers putting in an arrival and departure time so it is more obvious. As Clive says, the idea of regulation is to keep trains moving on clear signal aspects (ie green unless they're not available). Given ARS uses the principle of 2 green signals, I'd suggest that as your train passes the second to last green signal (so the next one is green, then 2 Yellows, then Yellow, then Red when approaching a junction), you should be looking to set the route for it. That way any level crossings have time to lower and clear so the train keeps seeing green signals. Anything much earlier than this, and you're probably going to cause yourself an issue by blocking something for too long. Also remember that a 125mph train will pass the junction much faster than a train slowing to take the divergence if it's a heavily restricted speed limit, so think about which you prioritise - one slowing from 125mph to stop for another train to cross in front of it will lose more time than one which has to slow down anyway. On other sims, such as South Humberside, regulation takes a slightly different form. I produced a set of ntoes to this effect (which should still be on the Wiki somewhere I hope), so that people could see the actual information used by real signallers to guide them. In this case (and the case with some other sims such as Carlisle), long sections of line without loops etc mean that freight has to be signalled around the passenger service to avoid delays. Not an issue on a perfect day, but what's the fun in running a perfect scenario? Often, a bit of thought has to go into what to do, and running sims at high speed makes this difficult. I don't like running sims at high speed, unless it is plainly obvious that there may only be 2 or 3 trains in the sim, and there is no need to run slower. This is usually only at the very start or end of a game for me. It was also mentioned about new players and relative cometencies of players - I ahve to admit that I've only been playing multiplayer games with the regulars on Teamspeak for a while, and so we all know our strengths and weaknesses. The best suggestion I can give is to communicate with the host as to what you think you can manage, so you don't end up with something too difficult. I really would recommend the use of voice communication - it makes life so much easier to communicate, and ask questions or advice. Trying to type messages and set routes at the same time is hard work, where as speaking and setting routes is much easier. Most people (in the UK) could go to their local Poundland and buy a perfectly good headset for £1, download the Teamspeak client software (or set up a Skype group, although this can use a lot of bandwidth when there are a number of you), and enjoy the freedom of voice communication. I'd say one more thing to newer players - do communicate with your host. If you feel that you're not getting the help and advice you need (for me, it is quite reasonable to be given a smaller panel without knowing too much about it, and have things explained as you go along - also much easier by voice!), then politely leave, and I suggest find a different host. Not everyone will be comfortable playing with everyone else, because of the different styles of play, and the different personalities involved. There are people who I don't get on with, and people who ignore me now (including some people quite high up in the SimSig chain). A multiplayer game is a team game - you are not just thinking about yourself and your panel - you are joining a team striving to run a railway service to the best of your combined ability. The score at the end is irrelevant to me - you get to know how your game is going along if you look furhter than your panel, and with voice communication, you get to find out much easier what's going on without looking at the panel. I've sat in on Clive's Cambridge session on Teamspeak (more for the social value) whilst doing other things, and I can pick up what's happening without even joining the game. With text communication, I couldn't do this. What is more relevant to me is that everyone enjoys themselves, and collectively, the session is a successful representation of running a railway. One day if I ever run out of projects to keep myself busy, I may come back to open multiplayer games more regularly, but in the mean time, I can often be found on Teamspeak working either on my own, or in a group on projects for SimSig and other interests. If anyone want to pop along and say hello and have a chat, or join a voice conversation within a multiplayer game, then please feel free to join the regulars and occasional users alike. God bless, Daniel Wilson Last edited: 09/05/2013 at 11:57 by onlydjw Log in to reply The following user said thank you: headshot119 |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 12:24 #44459 | |
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John
884 posts |
" said:In multiplay they cannot access the timetable (F4)so their ability to regulate has certain limitations." said: timetables can be viewed by clicking on the TD? unless you're referring to trains entering when a route has already been set in front of them, in which case newer sims have the provision of a simplifier.And for earlier sims, you can open a second copy of the sim with the relevant tt and view trains entering that way. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 16:11 #44468 | |
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Colourlight
117 posts |
I think of a timetable as being a list of train schedules hence the reference to F4 to make the point clear. Clicking on the TD gives what I consider to be the trains Schedule. So only the Host can "see" the trains that have not entered the Sim which is what makes Train regulating more difficult. I,m concentrating on hosting Cambridge at the moment so a simplifier is not an option, nor did it occur to me that you could use one. Good point John. The other problem with my timetable is that I downloaded it and made a lot of changes which would make downloading another copy by the operators mislesding. I am actually considering making a list of departures from Whitemoor and March TMD, available on request, which is the main regulating problem on the March panel. Nice post Onlydjw by the way. A useful contribution. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 20:00 #44490 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
some very good points the Gents. So it seem though we all have our different opinions of how to host and how we enjoy games, we all agree that the extremely high ACOA and wrong route numbers are simply down to attention to detail when reading timetables. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 09/05/2013 at 21:44 #44498 | |
pedroathome
902 posts |
Going back to one of the earlier comments here. I was hosting Exeter a couple weeks back, a player had set a route for a train at Newton Abbot, it had departed, but then on looking back at the TT after when another train was approaching, candled the route. I think the player was just looking at the time, and not location. As I was hosting, I reset the route, and sent a message to ask why, and say that it had already departed. The player still clearly not looking at the location (TT was showing Totnes further down the line). The route got cancelled another once or twice before understanding what was happening. I will say that although I don't really mind what the score at the end is, it is players who do not pay attention that bugs me. Delays I understand, but not ACOAs or wrong routes. As a personal note, I have been running the Swindid sim alone, without the use of ARS, with delays set high, and failures off, with a 96% score. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: afro09 |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 01:53 #44511 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
Guys here is a look at the score from the full Kings Cross 2003 weekday TT I hosted, Analysis of your performance and score Trains passing timing points: 13158 total timing points On time: 8858 (67%) 2 mins late: 2222 (17%) 5 mins late: 1114 (8%) Over 5 mins late: 964 (7%) Minutes lost/gained overall: Total minutes lost by you: 8475 Total minutes recovered by you: 9 Trains using the correct platforms: 1091 occasions Correct: 1025 (94%) Opposite: 41 (4%) Incorrect: 25 (2%) Miscellaneous: Total routes cancelled with trains approaching: 39 Total wrong routes set for trains: 17 Total joining moves abandoned: 0 Total trains removed: 1 Total trains shortened: 0 Other points lost: 47 TOTAL SCORE 103764 OUT OF 133497 (78%) Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 02:02 #44512 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Good considering all the failures! Enjoyed the host Alan. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 14:19 #44522 | |
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lanzecki
9 posts |
" said:Afro, how many trains were on the TT? Percentage wise it may not be as bad as it looks. It was touched on earlier, And I'll explain how it affected me : Last night I was on Hitchin. I had 3 trains in succession All on the uplines. The 3rd was bound for the loop. I knew the 3rd was going onto the loop, as I'd checked it as it entered the panel. All that said I still routed it incorrectly requiring Afro to reverse it for me, since when I clicked on it again to double check it's route passing Stevenage the TT window didn't change from the previous train until I'd seen where it was going (I thought) and routed it. The reason I say this is that while we all try and achieve accuracy (and I do believe this) stuff does happen to some of us that doesn't happen to everyone. By now you all know my Internet issues (ongoing for years), and Hopefully I have a sensible solution that actually going to work. Damn me for living outside a town. Mistakes do happen, professionals we are not, and we often chop and change sims. I hosted Brighton a while ago, and both experienced controllers commented that the methodology was different from the likes of KX. Personally I do make mistakes, but I try and learn from them. I'll also ask if I'm not sure, often to the frustration of the Host :) As to re-routing trains for the hell of it, if it's not on the TT it doesn't happen. Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 14:51 #44523 | |
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pedroathome
902 posts |
This is my performance analysis from the last time I hosted a Exeter sim. If I remember correctly, there were delays (and with long branches, not much can be done) __________________________________08:42 ___________ 15:40 Trains passing timing points: __________763 _____________2351 On time: ___________________________ 73(10%) __________227 (10%) 5 mins late: ___________________ _____ 52( 7%) __________131 ( 6%) Over 5 mins late: ____________________ 49( 6%) __________159 ( 7%) Minutes lost/gained overall: Total minutes lost by you: _____________404 _____________1227 Total minutes recovered by you: ________112 _____________ 236 Trains using the correct platforms:_______ 95 _____________334 Correct: ___________________________ 93(98%)_________329 (99%) Opposite: __________________________ 0( 0%)_________0 ( 0%) Incorrect: __________________________ 2(2%) _________5 ( 1%) Miscellaneous: routes cancelled trains approaching: _____ 1 _____________9 wrong routes set for trains: _____________ 1 _____________3 joining moves abandoned: ______________ 0 _____________0 trains removed: _______________________ 0 _____________0 trains shortened: _____________________ 0 ______________0 Other points lost: ______________________2 _____________27 TOTAL SCORE _____________________103764 ________19775 OUT OF __________________________133497 (78%) __23818 (83%) I will give it to the signallers, given that at least one on here was new to multi player, that they did do a good job in my opinion, but the main things I noticed was that occasionally a TRTS would be either ignored, or missed, and thus I would set the route, let the train out, or level crossings would get forgotten about. (I cant moan about LC's as I forget them myself quite often, especially Portbury on the Bristol sim) Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 15:43 #44525 | |
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Temple Meads
307 posts |
" said:(I cant moan about LC's as I forget them myself quite often, especially Portbury on the Bristol sim)Indeed, the non auto-raise level crossings on Exeter can be very easy to overlook if you aren't on the ball, particularly Topsham and Paignton, which are out of the way on the bottom of the layout. I've played far too much Exeter in both single and mutiplayer mode, and still forget the crossings far too often. Username TIM in multiplayer Log in to reply |
| Reading Timetables and End of Game Scores? 10/05/2013 at 15:51 #44527 | |
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afro09
167 posts |
" said:Good considering all the failures! Enjoyed the host Alan.Yes it was good score in the end considering! Your welcome Barry and lets hope the 1985 TT with add-ons is as enjoyable!! " said: Afro, how many trains were on the TT? Percentage wise it may not be as bad as it looks.There were 833 trains in the 2003 weekday TT. " said: It was touched on earlier, And I'll explain how it affected me :Lanz has proved the point I was trying to make with this thread with the above statement, we all make mistakes (we are human after all) and not all of us are professional signallers. my point is that rather than put a signal back in a drivers face it would be more realistic to chose one of the following options a.) wait for the driver to notice the wrong route has been set and call in, then you tell him you are putting the signal back which then does not constitute an ACOA. b.) if the driver takes the wrong route you can see if it is possible to re-route him back on to his correct path further down the line. if it is well and good, if not you chose option c. c.) you stop the train at the next possible danger signal as not to cause an ACOA (like Lanz done) then ask the host to reverse the train to a point where it can be re-routed to its correct route. But then again we will all have different opinions on this too!! " said: This is my performance analysis from the last time I hosted a Exeter sim. If I remember correctly, there were delays (and with long branches, not much can be done)Pedroathome, My point is not about delays. Delays are enevitable and this bring element of regulation into the sim for signallers thus making it enjoyable. My point is about the amount of ACOA's and wrong routes set. Looking at you Exeter game analysis up until 15:40 (bearing in mind you would still have a lot of trains to run after that point) 9 ACOA's is mediocre, i.e its not good but is no where near as bad as 39 ACOA's in a full TT, although only 3 wrong routes up to that period is good!!. Log in to reply |