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| Light Relief - Jack Warland 13/09/2013 at 12:56 #49358 | |
RainbowNines
272 posts |
Not sure if this is the right place for it, so do feel free to move! I acquired the above book on the back of this post. So glad I picked it up. A fine bit of writing and some brilliant stories. The insight into the steam era even in it's later years is wonderful. Signalmen essentially did everything at the quieter stations! There are a few copies floating around - highly recommend it! Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 17/09/2013 at 10:21 #49426 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
I have the book, and the "conflat" episode referred to in your linked post is from Bere Alston (page 59 of the book). As a driver who signs Bere Alston, when I arrive on a Gunnislake service I often look over to where the yard used to be and imagine Jack and the others having to push that conflat out of the wrong siding, and "through the shed" by hand. 
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| Light Relief - Jack Warland 27/09/2013 at 12:57 #49632 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I've just finished reading this highly enjoyable book. Until I read it I had no idea that in those days (the sixties), at any rate, signalmen had to learn and perform shunting duties too. Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 01/10/2013 at 13:32 #49700 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
I was rather hoping that someone might have commented on my last post. One of my older friends in Australia worked as a shunter on the Victorian railways, eventually becoming promoted to "leading shunter", but he hated it as it was always a dangerous job, particularly at night, not to mention shift work interfering with his sleep and reducing his alertness. He worked the humps, threw points levers and took a great many risks coupling and decoupling cars, often when they were moving slowly. As far as I know he was never trained in signalling, nor worked with any trainee signallers who might have been required to learn this aspect of railway work. His recollections of the job lead me to think it's a wonder he survived at all. I can understand that Jack Warland might have had to become involved with more than just signalling, particularly at the remote locations in his earlier years, but it makes me wonder how much signalling training shunters get these days, and conversely how much signallers working at IECC desks are required to be involved in the lives that shunters lead. Last edited: 01/10/2013 at 13:34 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 01/10/2013 at 16:20 #49706 | |
Steamer
3984 posts |
" said:I can understand that Jack Warland might have had to become involved with more than just signalling, particularly at the remote locations in his earlier years, but it makes me wonder how much signalling training shunters get these days, and conversely how much signallers working at IECC desks are required to be involved in the lives that shunters lead.As far as I can tell, these days there is a clear line between traincrew and signallers. The amount of shunting these days is far less than what it was, since passenger trains are either multiple units or fixed-formation sets of coaches, and freight trains are generally 'block' trains that run backwards and forwards between locations. Any shunting (with the exception of splitting/joining sets of multiple units) is generally confined to yards and sidings. The main interaction between traincrew and signaller is when the crew request routes to be set to allow them to run round/move a train around the yard. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 02/10/2013 at 10:41 #49718 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts 
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Max, I think the answer probably is that this only happened in a few areas - or where it was a good way for a bobby to make a bit of overtime :woohoo: (Lots of things happened if overtime was in the frame... say no more!) My father started on the railway as a Box Lad (sometimes called Telegraph Lad on the Great Northern); their job was essentially recording all times of bell signals in the train register, dealing with telephones (but not signal post telephones where such existed), generally handling all the information the signalman would need to work the box; a good Lad would always have the right bit of information as each train passed or bell rang, to help the signalman make regulating decisions (and having 'visited' Finchley Road on many occasions I know from experience how much difference it can make to have a voice say 'that'll be the all stations in advance of the semi' at just the right moment as 3-1 is rung on the block). The Lad was usually also expected to keep the box clean, fetch the coal up for the fire and make the tea at suitable moments. He would also (usually) get to work the box under supervision, as part of his learning for the next stage in his career. But that's a bit off the point (sorry). Dad's next job (and first 'proper' signalling job) was as Porter-Signalman at Chappel & Wakes Colne. As such he was trained and passed to work the box and would be the only signalling staff on duty. But as there was a pretty sparse service, he was also required to take part in the shunting when the Tripper was on hand and to carry out station duties (ticket sales, cleaning, etc) between trains. (This was in the early 1950s, I should say.) Porter-Signalmen were also employed at some very busy locations. (I believe Gloucester Road Junction, between Selhurst and Croydon, was one such; see http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Gloucester_Road_Junction.html for what they had to play with!) In that case they would work a part-shift as an extra pair of hands in the box, usually in the busiest part of the day, the rest of their time being spent on station duties. I've an idea the Porter-Signalman grade was done away with in the 'Pay & Efficiency' agreements of the 1970s. I think it's highly likely that, in the quieter backwaters of the Withered Arm, Jack Warland may have had to relieve a number of Porter-Signalman jobs. Even after P&E there were a few places where signalmen were still expected to perform other duties. When Salisbury - Exeter was singled, the tokenless block system that was devised was specifically designed to allow trains to run even if signalmen were engaged on other duties outside the box (including a safety feature that allowed a bobby to put the starter back to danger at the box in rear - it was done by turning the 'acceptance' switch from 'accept' to 'normal', I believe - if an emergency arose while his mate was outside). Ironically, almost as soon as it was commissioned most freight facilities were withdrawn and booking offices demanned so it was never exploited. In later years, the box at Templecombe was adapted so it could also do duty as a booking office and the signalman then issued tickets as well as signalling trains. Away from the quieter branch lines, there would have been few places where the traffic would be light enough to allow a signalman to perform other duties around a station. Likewise, if there was enough work to need a shunter there was unlikely to be time in the job for signalling duties. In the '60s, many (most?) stations would have had a 'goods porter' whose job encompassed both shunting the local yard (with the assistance of the guard of any freight train that called there) and loading/unloading wagons and road vehicles, some of the basic paperwork etc. Again, certainly insufficient time for signalling duties. After Chappel, Dad's first box as a fully-fledged signalman was at Gamston http://signalboxes.com/gamston-signalbox.php This was a Grade 3 box (under the system of the time the lowest grade box worked by a signalman proper), and had a 12 lever frame (2 spare); quite apart from there being no station or sidings, the traffic certainly left insufficient time for any other work. This was in 1954. After that, his progress was upwards until he became a 'Special class A' relief signalman at the southern end of the GN Main Line (essentially the area coverd by Kings X, Royston and part of Peterborough sims) then into the inspectorate. Hope that helps towards an answer. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/10/2013 at 07:13 #49742 | |
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Haraubrad
103 posts |
When a fireman at Woodford Halse we used to work the 0515 Woodford Quainton Road pickup.At Brackley there was usually a wagon or two to drop off. The practice being the train stopped short of the south crossover the guard uncoupled the waggon/s from the train and then went to set the road in the yard. Front portion of train pulled forward clear of the crossover, signalman set the road the fireman uncoupled the wagon/s and then they were loose shunted into the yard. By the side of the coal road was the goods crane and a conflat with a container was standing by it. As we backed up onto the rest of the train I looked across and noticed that the container was swinging on the crane with its end bashed in. luckily the container was not attached to the wagon. The coal wagon we had sent merrily on it's way had hit the conflat knocked it from under the container and then damaged the container. We never heard anything about it so how it was explained I don't know. Aubrey Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, kbarber |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 04/10/2013 at 13:38 #49780 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks everyone who responded, particularly Keith. That certainly answered my question. As a child growing up on the Clyde-Carlingford line in Sydney (before electrification!) I vividly remember the little tank locos that were used, the runaround shunting and the "rail motors" which were single-carriage diesel-powered contraptions with a driver's cabin at each end. There were small kid-sized seats on either side of each driver's cabin facing sideways with glorious views forward and into the cabin itself. If the driver liked you he might let you toot the air horn too! Click "42-Foot Rail Motor" thumbnails for seating diagram. Note the driving wheel is slightly larger in early models! You can see the radiator above one end of the rail motor Original colours The Carlingford A lever frame. (1978) As it was single line working in those days I remember the guard passing a large key-shaped token to the stationmaster which must have fitted into some large locking mechanism. Runarounds took place at each end of the line, but I cannot remember whether guards were involved - probably were. Pardon my digression. Last edited: 04/10/2013 at 14:04 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 07/10/2013 at 10:24 #49841 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts
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" said:Thanks everyone who responded, particularly Keith. That certainly answered my question.Max, was the key the same as that shown in your picture of Carlingford? The lock on that lever looks to me like an Annetts lock. I would imagine the key also did duty as the single line staff for One Engine in Steam or Train Staff & Ticket working; if TS&T the key would have to be carried by any train requiring to shunt but a ticket could be carried by a railcar if there would be no shunting involved in that section and another train needed to follow in the same direction. It was equally possible to form an Annetts key on the non-business end of an electric key token. In that case the key would be an extension of a larger object that would have a flat (often rectangular in the UK) portion on which station names were engraved and the other end would have an entirely different 'key', formed of a segment of a circle cast on the shaft, that fitted in to the token machine. (There's plenty of images if you google 'Tyers Key Token', though I couldn't find any with an Annetts Key incorporated.) That would allow trains to follow each other or to run alternately without restriction (in contrast to those other systems, that would always require the staff proper to be at the end the train required to enter the section - a real pain if the timetable became disrupted just after you'd sent the staff away expecting it to return after a sensible interval). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 07/10/2013 at 11:35 #49842 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you again Keith! I guess the token indelibly engraved in my memory must have been a type of Annett's key rather than a Tyers key, though I have not been able to find a photo exactly matching it in Google Images. What I remember was a very fine piece of workmanship, a key-shaped token roughly two feet long made of metal (probably steel) with brass inlaid into the thick rectangular-section ring that was its head. This contained the appropriate wording for the key. The shaft was about an inch and a half thick, long enough to be gripped by two hands as the stationmaster passed it to the guard (as I recall) while the train was in motion, like a baton in a relay race. The business end had heavy rectangular teeth as in a typical picture of an Annett's key, intended to go into a lock. It was fun watching the deft way the token was passed around, though I did not understand its purpose in those days. Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 08/10/2013 at 06:14 #49848 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
I have attached a Circular relating to Carlingford's single lever frame and a picture of an ordinary train staff (token)similar to that used on the single line. Barry Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Last edited: 08/10/2013 at 06:16 by BarryM Log in to reply The following users said thank you: kbarber, maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 08/10/2013 at 09:43 #49849 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts
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Thanks to Barry for that. Max, the key you recall is more akin to a UK-style train staff than any kind of electric token - there is just one for each section. The square end would probably be considered unusual in the UK - we would just have the shaft (often with a distinctive cross-section for at least part of its length), with an Annetts key if necessary and with the station names engraved or inscribed on a plate that was screwed/rivetted on. The method of operation (more specifically the interlocking by cascaded Annetts keys) in the circular Barry posted was, apparently, occasionally to be found in the UK too; the London & North Western Railway used it on a few of its quieter branch lines in North Wales. Invariably it would apply only at the terminus so the leading key would always arrive with a train. The home (and starting?) signals would be worked by a ground frame which also worked the points to the loop (and perhaps one or two others as well), so there was probably no need for two locks on the same lever. But the same principle applied: move a lever to release a key that can then be used to release another lever elsewhere in the layout. The French have developed this 'cascaded keys' principle much further and the poste a serrures can (or at least could until recently) be found on some significant main lines. Certainly the Nord main line between Boulogne and Amiens had numerous installations of this type, linked with their Lartigue block apparatus (albeit the original Lartigue semaphores were replaced by colour lights in later years). There is a detailed explanation of the system here http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/railway/electro.htm The handles used to give 'Annonce' and 'Reddition' signals could themselves by locked with small brass keys, that also released the switches used to operate the colour light signals (thus preserving the interlocking that was inherent in the original semaphore). But the key could also be inserted into a small box (anything from 9 inches to 2 feet square, depending on complexity, and about an inch deep) in the station building. This would release one or more other keys; withdrawing one would normally lock the others (and of course lock the block/signal key in). The released key would then unlock one (or more) single hand levers, moving which could then release yet another key and so on. In that way a very complex layout could be fully interlocked with just hand levers at points/signals (in one case - Noyelles sur Mer - a small carre on a pole was locked into its base by such a key and could only be released when the points were set for that road). All this, of course, was at the expense of quite a lot of running around the yard, so it was only suitable where the vast majority of traffic ran straight through and shunting was concentrated into a few shortish periods. it also resulted in many stations having an official bicycle, on which the signalman would arrive at high speed to carry out a shunt before hurtling back to the station building and his waiting cup of coffee. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Hawk777 |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 10/10/2013 at 01:50 #49891 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Amazing! Thanks to BarryM and Keith. The Yass train staff as depicted is exactly as I remember it on the Carlingford line. And if I'm not mistaken, there's a smaller Annett's key hanging on the left side of the box. Where did you find this pic? Is there a train museum in Yass? It's a bit far from Melbourne right now but I'll drop in if I'm driving through to Sydney. Thanks Keith for that erudite information on the French system. Last edited: 10/10/2013 at 01:54 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 11/10/2013 at 09:22 #49921 | |
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BarryM
2158 posts |
Yass Railway Museum Open: Sunday and Public Holidays, 10am - 4pm. View the old rolling stock and a model railway. Walk the shortest platform in Australia and wander through the 100 year old station building. Located in Crago Street, Yass NSW 2582 Phone 1300 886 014 Entry fees apply - Adult $3, Children $2, Family $8 Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 06:52 #52339 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
A mate of mine whose grandfather was a Station Master in Sydney, NSW (Australia) told me this story today. A man named George was a station master on a single line where train staffs were used. One day he decided to play a trick by warming the train staff on his office stove before handing it to one of the (steam train) drivers whom he apparently disliked. George had put on a protective glove beforehand but the driver didn't notice this. Once the driver grabbed the staff on the way through, it was so hot he had to throw it from hand to hand several times in order not to drop it, cursing George every time and ending up with mild burns to his hands. On the way back, he told the fireman "I'll get even with this b******", and inserted the staff in the firebox until it was considerably hotter than when he received it. On passing through George's station, he briefly called out "Warm, George!" while holding the staff by its ring end (the usual method, but with protection this time) as he passed it back to George, who grabbed it with both hands with dire results! He was off work for several days until the blisters healed sufficiently. My mate didn't mention any inquiry resulting from this. From then on, "Warm, George!" became a general saying in my friend's family, a general warning about anything if it needed to be given. I would have thought it was the guard rather than the driver who passed the staff to the stationmaster but apparently not in this case. Last edited: 03/12/2013 at 07:12 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 10:25 #52343 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:No, the driver is responsible for obeying single line rules, just like he's responsible for obeying signals. So he has to keep the staff in his possession at all times. Similarly, the driver has to be shown the staff when issued a ticket in staff-and-ticket working. There are rules about double-heading. From memory, the lead engine must carry the staff but the other drivers must be shown it. From weaker memory, banking engines were shown the staff but didn't carry it. Some places would have a special banking staff to allow the banking engine to get back home after dropping off the back. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 11:26 #52346 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:Traditionally (But not anymore I believe) it was the rearmost engine which carried the staff, after all other locomotives had been shown it.No, the driver is responsible for obeying single line rules, just like he's responsible for obeying signals. So he has to keep the staff in his possession at all times. Similarly, the driver has to be shown the staff when issued a ticket in staff-and-ticket working. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 11:53 #52347 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts
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" said:" said:No, the driver is responsible for obeying single line rules, just like he's responsible for obeying signals. So he has to keep the staff in his possession at all times. Similarly, the driver has to be shown the staff when issued a ticket in staff-and-ticket working. This is one that's changed with the years. Clive is correct that it's always the driver who carries the staff/token, and always has been. It used to be that the staff/token would be carried by the rearmost engine having been shown to every other driver. In Train Staff & Ticket working, drivers other than the one carrying a staff would be issued with a ticket; I think this is the only situation where every driver would hold a single line authority. Of course with OTW (formerly OES) and with (virtually) all the varieties of electric token/staff/tablet there can only be one authority available at a time[1], hence the requirement to show all drivers. I have an idea practice altered because of the increasing prevalence of top-&-tail working (and - correct me if I'm wrong - the deletion of the requirement to advise if there was an engine in rear of the train[2]). (Can someone confirm whether working with a loco in rear is now authorised everywhere by default?) In this situation, the bobby doesn't know whether there's a rear driver to collect the staff from and therefore might find himself in a position of danger if the train doesn't stop where expected for the handover[3]. Of course it also makes it easier when dealing with double-headers - no need to wonder whether they're in multiple with only one driver or working in tandem with the staff on the rear loco. Similar practice was observed when working by Pilotman was in operation, whether because of a lost/damaged staff or when Single Line Working was in operation on a double line; in this case the pilotman would personally instruct the driver of each loco and either ride with the rearmost or remain to authorise a following train. One exception I can think of is during a failure on a single line worked by acceptance lever, where (IIRC) the leading loco would be issued with a ticket. Banking on single lines was, I suspect, a subject in itself. If the bank engine was to work right through the section it would be treated as an engine assisting in rear[2] and would carry the normal staff/token. Arrangements where the banker dropped off mid-section would be in local instructions, sometimes as Clive says with a special 'banking staff' (which might or might not lock anything). [1] There was such a thing as a permissive electric tablet (I have an idea it was Tyers No. 7 but I may be wrong about the number). It would allow any number of tablets to be withdrawn at the same end, so trains could follow each other through the section, but none could be withdrawn to let a train go the opposite way until all had been put back in. I believe the first installation was between Langley Junction and Hertford, where the loop initially opened as a single line late in the first world war; it didn't last long, as the line was quickly doubled. (There is a suspicion it was a wartime expedient to get the line into use as quickly as possible.) It is believed by some that the instruments were transferred to Reedham Junction http://www.signalbox.org/gallery/e/reedhamjcn.php and Breydon Junction to signal the section via Berney Arms. I have no idea what the arrangements were if a second engine were on the train; these installations would certainly have been subject to local instructions. [2] It used to be that a second engine at the rear of a train had to be authorised (in normal working) by the Sectional Appendix (Table J). In Absolute Block areas an 'assisting engine' was advised from box to box by the bell signal 2-2, which was sent after the Train Entering Section signal had been acknowledged; if there was more than one rear engine, 2-2 would be sent a second (and even third) time after the previous one had been acknowledged. There was a general authority for light locos to run coupled, in which case (if I remember correctly) up to five could be run together; the first would be signalled as a light loco (bell code 2-3) then, after TES, each additional loco would be a 2-2. If the trailing locos were dead, however, the assemblage was to be signalled as a class 9 freight with the number of locos advised from box to box by phone. (Just to add to the merriment, a loco with one or two brake vans could also run as a class 0 (bell code 1-1-3) or be used to 'assist in rear' (bell code 2-3-1) using the same procedures.) Track Circuit Block was a lot easier - describe it as class 0 if they're all under power or class 9 if some are dead in tow, then advise the next box by phone how many there are. I have a suspicion all these regs have completely disappeared these days. [3] Stopping to hand over the staff is a relatively recent innovation. It used to be the case that staff/token would be changed on the move, hence the large hoops they were clipped into so that signalman and fireman could receive them on their arm (not catch them in their hand). It was said that - offical limits notwithstanding - tokens would be changed manually at speeds up to 40mph on the busier single lines. Some lines adopted token exchange apparatus which allowed even faster changing - up to 60mph, I believe. Of course a token would get missed sometimes, leading to some spectacular stops to retrieve (and doubtless some even faster running so the miss wouldn't get noticed by Control). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 12:14 #52348 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thank you all for enlightening me!
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| Light Relief - Jack Warland 03/12/2013 at 14:00 #52351 | |
postal
5264 posts |
" said:[3] Stopping to hand over the staff is a relatively recent innovation. It used to be the case that staff/token would be changed on the move, hence the large hoops they were clipped into so that signalman and fireman could receive them on their arm (not catch them in their hand). It was said that - offical limits notwithstanding - tokens would be changed manually at speeds up to 40mph on the busier single lines. Some lines adopted token exchange apparatus which allowed even faster changing - up to 60mph, I believe. Of course a token would get missed sometimes, leading to some spectacular stops to retrieve (and doubtless some even faster running so the miss wouldn't get noticed by Control).There is a marvellous tale in one of David L Smith's reminiscences of the Glasgow & South Western Railway in the late 19th. and early 20th. Century of a signaller with a peg-leg on one of the single line sections of the G&SW. None of these modern prosthetics, just a rounded shaft of wood where the bottom end of the leg should have been a la Long John Silver. As I remember it the box was typically G&SW as it was in the dip between two hills so trains in both directions would take a run to get up the hill and the hand-over-hand token exchange required a fair amount of dexterity and co-ordination. Eventually there was a circular hole worn into the platform where the signaller stood to make the exchange because he allowed the momentum of the exchange to spin him round and round on his peg-leg! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: kbarber, maxand |