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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 13:47 #54052
maxand
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I don't remember seeing them in the earlier version so these must have been introduced for the loader version.



Both roundels were hollow when I started but I accidentally clicked Non-Stop, setting it, and now I can't reset it.

Would someone please explain how these work? I can't seem to find them mentioned in the manual.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 14:02 #54053
AndyG
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In the old version, there was a TRTS on the platform, and the route over the crossing wasn't meant to be set for stopping trains, to stop the AHB being activated prematurely (All as per real life I believe).

This has been replaced by the stop/non-stop in this current version.

If the wrong button has been clicked, cancelling and resetting the route should clear it (subject to ACoA of course!).

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 14:03 #54054
postal
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" said:
I don't remember seeing them in the earlier version so these must have been introduced for the loader version.



Both roundels were hollow when I started but I accidentally clicked Non-Stop, setting it, and now I can't reset it.

Would someone please explain how these work? I can't seem to find them mentioned in the manual.
They govern the lowering of the LC; if the Non-Stop is checked the barriers lower earlier so that the train can proceed without having to slow down while the signals clear. Resets after the passage of a train so the only impact of the Non-Stop being checked is that the barriers will be down for too long if the train is due to stop.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 17:49 #54062
guidomcc
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As to why they are there:
Quote:
...is cause by the strike-in sequence being started, but a train not going over the AHB within 120 seconds, also the case if a train has passed the AHB, raised, but continued to be within the strike-in area (if rollback protection not disabled), will cause the AHB to resume working, thus again, not having a train going over it within 120 seconds, cause it to fail.

As for the example of Greenland Mills AHB (Westbury simulation), the AHB has the strike-in started on approach to Bradford-on-Avon station, so with a train stopped at W186 for a while or doing station duties, will cause the AHB to fail.

In real life, Greenland Mills AHB has stopping/non-stopping controls on it for the timing of the AHB.
*Stopping control will only start when the TRTS plunger has been operated by the train crew for W186, normally taking about 50 seconds from when signal clears to train being on the crossing.
Source: Hpotter's comment in this thread

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 18:24 #54066
Muzer
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Is it still a requirement not to set the route until the TRTS is received (for stopping trains)?
Last edited: 20/01/2014 at 18:25 by Muzer
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 20/01/2014 at 20:12 #54067
Late Turn
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My interpretation of the situation, from the comments above, the quote from the other thread and some photos of the panel that I've found, is that the TRTS serves only to start the barrier sequence when the 'stopping' option has been selected with a route set. I can't see it indicated anywhere on the real panel. If that's the case, then I'd say that the route ought to be set as normal, before the train arrives.
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 21/01/2014 at 00:24 #54073
maxand
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Thanks for all your replies.

I first tried AndyG's suggestion:
Quote:
If the wrong button has been clicked, cancelling and resetting the route should clear it (subject to ACoA of course!).
As you can see from the pic included in my original post, no route had been set in either direction when NON-STOP was clicked, making cancelling inapplicable. Worse still, I find I cannot set a route from signal 186 (at Bradford-on-Avon) down to 188R or 188. Maybe this is all automatic and depends on a train approaching. I guess I'll have to wait for a train to pass through before I can test this again.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 21/01/2014 at 02:10 #54074
Underwood
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" said:
My interpretation of the situation, from the comments above, the quote from the other thread and some photos of the panel that I've found, is that the TRTS serves only to start the barrier sequence when the 'stopping' option has been selected with a route set. I can't see it indicated anywhere on the real panel. If that's the case, then I'd say that the route ought to be set as normal, before the train arrives.
Correct, from at least 2 years ago so I doubt it hasn't changed, but the route was set and the stopping button pushed. As still done now, the guard presses the TRTS button at the station

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 21/01/2014 at 02:18 #54075
BarryM
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" said:
Thanks for all your replies.

I first tried AndyG's suggestion:
Quote:
If the wrong button has been clicked, cancelling and resetting the route should clear it (subject to ACoA of course!).
As you can see from the pic included in my original post, no route had been set in either direction when NON-STOP was clicked, making cancelling inapplicable. Worse still, I find I cannot set a route from signal 186 (at Bradford-on-Avon) down to 188R or 188. Maybe this is all automatic and depends on a train approaching. I guess I'll have to wait for a train to pass through before I can test this again.
\
Are you in Pause mode?

You can cancel the NON-STOP button by clearing the signal and then putting it back to Stop. You cannot set the route from 186 unless one of the Non-Stop/Stopping buttons are highlighted. You cannot set a route to an "R" signal.
Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 22/01/2014 at 13:10 #54110
Hpotter
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Just to clarify this little matter:

The stopping / non-stopping controls need to be selected before a route can be set in this case.

IE:
Non-stopping - select tthe control and set the route, signal will clear as long as train is not between the NS strike-in and the crossing.

Stopping - select stopping control, set the route, signal will not clear until the TRTS has been given.

Cancelling the cnotrols - set a route, pull the route, this will cause the controls to be cancelled if done in error.

Note:
Signal route is from W186 to W188 IIRC.

Hope that this helps.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 22/01/2014 at 19:57 #54128
Stephen Fulcher
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Looking at the diagrams for the area, there are a couple of minor inaccuracies with this system as simulated.

Bug 10348 applies.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 22/01/2014 at 22:00 #54130
GeoffM
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" said:
Bug 10348 applies.
Let's call it "ticket" instead of bug, shall we? Otherwise it implies that there have been 10348 actual bugs reported since the system started! Our issue tracking software, for those that don't know, includes suggestions/ideas, questions, reminders to do something, general snippets of information - and bugs - for all simulations released or in development.

(Oh and thanks for the detailed description)

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 22/01/2014 at 22:27 by GeoffM
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 23/01/2014 at 00:12 #54136
maxand
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Thanks HPotter, it works now. Select button - set route 186-188 - cancel route to reset button. Has no effect on down line (121-DT5)



(Still not sure why I couldn't set route earlier after setting buttons, which prompted this thread, and no, BarryM, I pretty sure I wasn't in Pause mode then.)

Problem solved.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 23/01/2014 at 00:23 #54137
jc92
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it doesn't seem right to me that you MUST set a route and cancel it to clear the controls for this signal? why can't you alter the choice without setting a route?

If, for instance i accidentally select non-stop for a train which is stopping, i have to then either set a route and leave it, causing an AHB failure which in itself is unsafe, or cause an ACOA by pulling the route on the train.

the system in use on trent for non-stop/stopping selection seems to work pretty well.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 23/01/2014 at 12:43 #54143
TomOF
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" said:

If, for instance i accidentally select non-stop for a train which is stopping, i have to then either set a route and leave it, causing an AHB failure which in itself is unsafe
The AHB is telling you that it has been in the working state too long. There is nothing inherently unsafe about that. There should be other safeguards in place to ensure the barriers don't raise in front of the train. I would assume the route from W186 would have to be cancelled to allow that (after the berth track circuit has been occupied for a suitable time).

" said:

or cause an ACOA by pulling the route on the train.

Then don't pull the route. It's less hassle to have the barriers down for longer than they need to be than to pull up in front of the train, have the route time out and deal with the stroppy phone call from the driver.

Last edited: 23/01/2014 at 12:44 by TomOF
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 23/01/2014 at 22:08 #54170
Stephen Fulcher
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" said:
it doesn't seem right to me that you MUST set a route and cancel it to clear the controls for this signal? why can't you alter the choice without setting a route?

If, for instance i accidentally select non-stop for a train which is stopping, i have to then either set a route and leave it, causing an AHB failure which in itself is unsafe, or cause an ACOA by pulling the route on the train.

the system in use on trent for non-stop/stopping selection seems to work pretty well.
Joe, the correct operation in reality allows you to cancel and change your mind without setting a route. If you look at Mantis 10348 I explained it in detail in there from interrogating the diagrams for Westbury and Bradford-on-Avon interlockings.

Theoretically, although the AHB will indicate failed for the barriers being down too long, they will not raise with the train still approaching the crossing. They only raise under certain failure conditions, such as the exit treadle not being hit but the relevant tracks clear.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 02:20 #54177
maxand
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Having just read Stephen Fulcher's comment:

Quote:
the correct operation in reality allows you to cancel and change your mind without setting a route.
this is far more intuitive and exactly what any ordinary person would expect to be able to do without having to look anything up!

Is there any possibility that this sim will be changed to this method in the next upgrade?

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 03:46 #54178
Danny252
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" said:
Is there any possibility that this sim will be changed to this method in the next upgrade?
It'll be fixed when it's fixed - come on, you've been here long enough to know that.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 03:49 #54179
maxand
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@Danny252

Quote:
It'll be fixed when it's fixed
I don't see that as an answer to my question as this does not seem to be a bug but the way it was designed, for whatever reason.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 11:26 #54185
Sacro
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" said:
" said:
Is there any possibility that this sim will be changed to this method in the next upgrade?
It'll be fixed when it's fixed - come on, you've been here long enough to know that.
Yes, of course there's a possibility, somewhere between 0 and 100%.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 11:49 #54188
Stephen Fulcher
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Although it could be described as a bug, and has been logged as needing looking at, in no way does this stop the simulation working.

I suspect Peter has better things to worry about at the moment.

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 11:51 #54189
mfcooper
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If you press Non-stopping, the relevant signal will show a proceed aspect immidiately, and the AHB will drop in good time for the train to pass running at line speed.
If you press Stopping, the relevant signal will stay at danger for a set time, and the AHB crossing will drop much later as the train will not get to the crossing until after it has stopped at the station.

If you change your mind from Stopping to Non-Stopping, the signal steps up from danger to proceed. If you change your mind from Non-Stopping to Stopping, the signal would want to revert to danger.

To give an approaching train (and its driver) an Adverse Change of Aspect is a bad idea. I *think* this is why you can only change your mind from Stop to Non-Stop, and not from Non-Stop to Stop.

Last edited: 24/01/2014 at 11:52 by mfcooper
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 24/01/2014 at 16:37 #54198
Peter Bennet
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" said:
Although it could be described as a bug, and has been logged as needing looking at, in no way does this stop the simulation working.

I suspect Peter has better things to worry about at the moment.
Indeed, "fatal" bugs will be dealt with promptly, non-fatal/cosmetic issues will be collected up on a sweep.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 29/01/2014 at 12:44 #54492
maxand
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One other thing I've noticed.

When I see a Down train that needs to stop at Bradford on Avon approaching it, I select Stopping, then set the route across Greenland Mill. When the train departs Bradford on Avon, I still get a Message "Signal 186 TRTS for XXXX at Bradford on Avon" (plus the TRTS sound which I installed) even there's no need for me to do anything about it any more, since it's all automatic now.

The train will get to 188 all by itself since I've already set its route. This part of the deal seems to be a throwback to the pre-loader version where TRTS would sound if the route had not been set (as far as I recall).

Would it be reasonable now to get rid of the TRTS warning unless no route has been set?

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Non-stop and Stopping buttons at Bradford On Avon 29/01/2014 at 13:04 #54493
sloppyjag
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" said:
One other thing I've noticed.

This part of the deal seems to be a throwback to the pre-loader version where TRTS would sound if the route had not been set (as far as I recall).

Would it be reasonable now to get rid of the TRTS warning unless no route has been set?
No, the TRTS will, and did in pre-loader versions, sound (and flash) if the signal is at red, even if the route is set. Look on other sims - the roundel will continue to flash while the route proves and stops flashing when the signal changes to green or yellow. If the Stopping button is selected then the crossing gates will not close until TRTS plunger is activated by driver and the signal will remain at red until the gates are closed - ergo, you get the TRTS notification.

Planotransitophobic!
Last edited: 29/01/2014 at 13:05 by sloppyjag
Reason: spelling.

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