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Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 10:42 #54883 | |
Andrew G
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I was wondering if Victoria ASC has different Links which appear to be quite common in Signalling Centres now, compared to the days when all Signallers were the same grade. My second question is whether Central and Eastern are treated as two different centres from a staffing point of view or whether some Signallers are passed to operate all panels. Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 11:51 #54892 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
Once upon a time, everyone who worked in Victoria ASC would have been passed on every panel. That changed at some point in the past (11 panels[sup](1)[/sup] is a bit much considering how long it took to get around them on the roster), and now there are 2 separate jobs - Central and Eastern. This means I will only ever know the Central panels, unless I transfer job. Grading wise, until recently Panel 1 was the only grade 9 panel in the box. So the Central job was a 9 and the Eastern job was an 8. However, Panel 8's boundaries changed when Blackfriars was remodelled and resignalled, where Panel 6 got smaller and Panel 8 got bigger. Also there was the introduction of the more intensive London Overground East London Line service through Denmark Hill. Together these got Panel 8 re-graded to a 9, hence Eastern job is now also a Grade 9 job. There are a few staff who previously have transferred from the Eastern to the Central when they were separate grades to get the higher grade, but in my 3.5 years at Victoria, no-one has ever been asked to cross-cover. I doubt their competencies have been kept up/renewed. So, there are two separate Grade 9 signalling jobs who work in the same room. Each "side" has its own Shift Manager on duty every shift (except on Sunday Early & Late) but they do cross-cover during sickness and annual leave. Each side has its own Local Operations Manager. We are all Sussex Route staff, but the Eastern job is almost entirely Kent Route infrastructure and run by Kent controllers. --- [sup]1[/sup] There were 10 Panels before panel 2 was split. The West London Line was added into Victoria ASC and it was deemed too much work to do for one person. The story I have heard, however, is that the WLL was meant to have been added to the Eastern side. When the Central manager at the time walked in after the resignalling, he was said to have exclaimed a series of expletives about how his budget wasn't enough to employ more staff to cover this new panel! Last edited: 03/02/2014 at 11:51 by mfcooper Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Andrew G, welwyn |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 13:21 #54905 | |
Andrew G
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Thanks for your detailed reply. I can understand with the size of the operation and the different control arrangements why it makes sense to treat as two distinct entities. Mind you I am sure there is a bean counter out there who has crunched the numbers to see if you could have a Grade 9 link (Covering 1 and 8 along with a couple more) and Grade 8 link for the rest. I felt sorry when I visited East Midlands as at the time the Robin Hood work station was isolated in one of the corners. One of the higher link men on Leicester commented that he was just a Branch Line at Grade 4 whereas they were Grade 7. It was a similar situation in Cardiff where the new Shrewsbury North work station was stuck in a corner at one end of the operating floor with the other work stations down the other end. During the week the signallers swapped over during the shift between the 4 Newport work stations as two are busier than the other two. I am assuming Panel 1 is a Grade 9 due to all of the Station Working (Set Swaps, Platform Alterations etc.) in addition to the area controlled. In terms of the simulation I have found that Panel 1 and Panel 2A go together reasonably well on a single monitor and traffic levels on 3 and 4 mean they can be paired. Challenge on 2B is it controls quite a stretch - I suppose in real life you have the benefit of the panoramic display. On East I thought it might have been Panel 7 with its myriad of tracks that was the Grade 9 - but I suppose a lot of it is mainly freight. ARS is definitely an aid in simulation terms as it does allow a solo player to experience working a single control area. Final question just out of interest is whether or not you or your colleagues have a view as to whether they prefer the separate control desk NX panels which the Southern seem to prefer or the combined control and display panels such as West Hampstead, Kings Cross and Feltham. Last edited: 03/02/2014 at 13:22 by Andrew G Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 15:13 #54909 | |
mfcooper
![]() 707 posts |
" said:Thanks for your detailed reply. You're welcome ![]() " said: I can understand with the size of the operation and the different control arrangements why it makes sense to treat as two distinct entities. Mind you I am sure there is a bean counter out there who has crunched the numbers to see if you could have a Grade 9 link (Covering 1 and 8 along with a couple more) and Grade 8 link for the rest. *cough* Unionised workforce *cough* " said: I am assuming Panel 1 is a Grade 9 due to all of the Station Working (Set Swaps, Platform Alterations etc.) in addition to the area controlled. In terms of the simulation I have found that Panel 1 and Panel 2A go together reasonably well on a single monitor and traffic levels on 3 and 4 mean they can be paired. Challenge on 2B is it controls quite a stretch - I suppose in real life you have the benefit of the panoramic display.The panoramic display is excellent for working together as a team. The layout of the desktop buttons becomes the inhibiting factor when trying to pair up panels. And when the s@!t hits the fan on *any* panel, you can't even think about it. (Particularly Panels 1 and 3, but in reality all of them). " said: On East I thought it might have been Panel 7 with its myriad of tracks that was the Grade 9 - but I suppose a lot of it is mainly freight. Panel 7 is rather busy. I *think* that it was easier to get a re-grading appointment for Panel 8 as its area of coverage was changing along side a more intensive service. Panel 7 has "only" seen these additional services. There are very sparse slots for panel re-grading, and I *believe* there is a priority system attached to these. Panel 10 is only a grade 8 because someone agreed to it being double manned in the peaks. I *believe* if it were single manned then the grade would be higher. " said: ARS is definitely an aid in simulation terms as it does allow a solo player to experience working a single control area. If only we had ARS in the box! " said: Final question just out of interest is whether or not you or your colleagues have a view as to whether they prefer the separate control desk NX panels which the Southern seem to prefer or the combined control and display panels such as West Hampstead, Kings Cross and Feltham. I don't know anyone who has worked both types. It is not something I've ever heard a discussion on. We are so used to the separate desktop buttons that we couldn't think about an alternative. Having personally seen both types, I prefer the panoramic display as everyone can look after everyone else without their view being hindered by someone standing in the way! The number of times I've heard the shout of a location name, or slang term, to stop a train coming up to a red signal needlessly are too numerous to mention. Last edited: 03/02/2014 at 15:20 by mfcooper Log in to reply The following user said thank you: welwyn |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 16:47 #54915 | |
Andrew G
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I suspect the panel style preference will depend on what you have worked and what you are used to. Western men seem to be happy with their turn and push panels, although it does mean no TORR. Either way they have more charm than VDU based signalling, although I'd have loved to have had the chance to visit the miniature lever frame boxes which were superseded by Victoria and Three Bridges. Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 17:22 #54917 | |
Hooverman
![]() 306 posts |
At TBASC we have the separate control desk and diagram in a continuous arc from panel 1a around to panel 6 and a separate panel (panel 7) which is an integrated stand up type of panel. I think I can say that all of our staff prefer the separate control desk and diagram type as you can see everything from Anerley and Thornton Heath down to Brighton in one simple glance. On panel 7 if your standing close to while operating the equipment then you can't see anything else on the panel apart from what's in front of you due to it's physical size.
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Andrew G |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 18:21 #54922 | |
Andrew G
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" said:At TBASC we have the separate control desk and diagram in a continuous arc from panel 1a around to panel 6 and a separate panel (panel 7) which is an integrated stand up type of panel. I think I can say that all of our staff prefer the separate control desk and diagram type as you can see everything from Anerley and Thornton Heath down to Brighton in one simple glance. On panel 7 if your standing close to while operating the equipment then you can't see anything else on the panel apart from what's in front of you due to it's physical size.Can't argue with that if you work both :-) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hooverman |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 18:43 #54924 | |
NorthSig
![]() 27 posts |
Back in the days of BR, the panel style, combined operation and display, or separate operating console desk to the display (as is the case at Victoria) was technically determined on the layout of the locations and the traffic density. Generally speaking, the usual form is the combined style, where each signaller is allocated a portion of the panel; the number of lines and the frequency of trains determines how much that signaller will supervise. An increase in track complexity will reduce the length of panel a signaller can handle; this in turn increases the number of signallers required. Note also that the signallers are typically stood up for most of the time and have to step back to get a wider overview, potentially obstructed with other signallers at their own panels. This led to the development of the separate console style, where each signaller has a separate console containing the buttons and switches relevant to that panel only; the operating console can be made more compact but the large overview is still present and each signaller now has an unobstructed view of it. Note also that each signaller can be seated at their own console rather than stood up as before. The second type costs more and various studies are undertaken to decide the type of console that will be installed. This takes into account track layout, the train service, estimated telephone calls, level crossings, etc. in order to gauge potential workloads. This leads to the separate console tending to be installed in large busy centres (such as Victoria and London Bridge), but as is always with the railway, there are plenty of exceptions. The then BR regions always had some degree of independence from head office and so tended to do things differently from each other, of course. The LNE tended to use the combined style, whilst the Southern tended towards the separate style. Another example is Exeter PSB having a separate console rather than a combined style of panel despite it not being as busy or as complex as many combined panels elsewhere. So many factors were taken into account to determine the final panel style. I've worked the combined type but not the console type so I can't say which my preference would be. As mfcooper says - you tend to become used to whatever style you use. Mr Cooper wishes he had ARS - well your colleagues at Three Bridges PSB did have it installed for a time on a particular area when ARS was being trialled in the early 1980s. After ARS proved itself a successful technology and further developed for the first IECCs it was subsequently removed from Three Bridges panel. The Victoria resignalling saw 37 older signalboxes closed as the commissioning proceeded in stages between 1978-1983. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: welwyn, Steamer, Andrew G |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 03/02/2014 at 22:53 #54964 | |
Hooverman
![]() 306 posts |
" said:Mr Cooper wishes he had ARS - well your colleagues at Three Bridges PSB did have it installed for a time on a particular area when ARS was being trialled in the early 1980s. After ARS proved itself a successful technology and further developed for the first IECCs it was subsequently removed from Three Bridges panel.Not removed, but switched off and collard. Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 01:05 #54970 | |
Lagertoe
![]() 61 posts |
The only people that sign both Eastern and Central panels and the WestCad work station are some of the Shift Managers
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Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 10:58 #54988 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:I suspect the panel style preference will depend on what you have worked and what you are used to. Western men seem to be happy with their turn and push panels, although it does mean no TORR. The frames were a delight to work. There are some bits & pieces still around. Part of South Croydon is at the Great Cockrow Railway (Everglades Junction); bits of North Kent East are incorporated in Hampton Court Junction (Maldon Model Engineers) and bits of Gloucester Road are there and elsewhere; a chunk of Purley is at Bekonscot Model Village; Battersea Park is privately preserved at the S&T Railway(!). (Information from Mark Adlington's Westinghouse 'L' Frame website http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm ) I never had much chance to work them, having only visited Balham, Battersea Pk and Clapham Junction 'B'. I can claim to have helped cart Battersea Park out of the box and into preservation. (The owner recently sent me a picture of us in the empty box. I looked horribly young in those days... an unpleasant reminder of the passing years!) Clapham B was known as the 2-lever junction. All the signals on the Through lines (Fast lines in modern terminology) would work automatically if the levers were left reversed. Likewise all but one signal each way on the Local lines. So the job consisted of endlessly restroking these two levers as each train went by on the Locals. This in a 103 lever frame that was double-manned! However Clapham B had a far more important function - sorting out the train descriptions for Victoria. Because the SR 'magazine' type describers depended on manual input, they were very prone to wrong descriptions in the busy London area. So the transmitters at the B had bits of paper sellotaped by the description plates showing the (old SR 2-digit) headcodes that applied to each description and it was common that the description sent forward bore no relation whatsoever to that received. The other peculiarity there (and at all the other boxes along that line) was that, although there was approach locking on the signals (the levers would only return to the checklock position if put back after the signal had cleared to a proceed aspect), there was no time release - once you'd pulled off, you were stuck! So the S&T there had special authority to release the backlock at the signalman's request if he'd pulled off a wrong'un or if he'd left a lever reverse for too long when a crossover move was expected. Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 11:10 #54991 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:Back in the days of BR, the panel style, combined operation and display, or separate operating console desk to the display (as is the case at Victoria) was technically determined on the layout of the locations and the traffic density. In reality it was a bit more complicated than this. Remember Watford, Bletchley and Rugby (early - mid 1960s) had separate consoles, although Willesden and Euston had the combined form. This might have had something to do with the former three controlling areas up-country where there were substantial lengths of auto sections between the interlockings. Each of those boxes had two signalmen and if they'd had combined panels I suspect they'd either have needed three or the bobbies would've had to do an awful lot of walking up & down to no real purpose (perhaps losing their overall sense of what was happening in the process). Going further back again, although the initial OCS panels of 1934/5 had switches mounted geographically, by the time Northallerton opened in 1939 it had reached its mature form with switches grouped on a separate console, a form that remained the norm until the OCS principle was superseded by NX. The original Metropolitan Vickers-GRS NX panels were of the combined type, of course. But Potters Bar (1953 or thereabouts?) had a separate console, with exit buttons ingeniously (albeit counterintuitively) combined with entrance switches to save space. But I have a suspicion that might have been a bit of an experiment and, apart from Barking (1960, combined panel), the MV-GRS design wasn't perpetuated. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: AndyG |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 11:40 #54993 | |
jc92
![]() 3649 posts |
" said:The frames were a delight to work. There are some bits & pieces still around. Part of South Croydon is at the Great Cockrow Railway (Everglades Junction); bits of North Kent East are incorporated in Hampton Court Junction (Maldon Model Engineers) and bits of Gloucester Road are there and elsewhere; a chunk of Purley is at Bekonscot Model Village; Battersea Park is privately preserved at the S&T Railway(!). (Information from Mark Adlington's Westinghouse 'L' Frame website http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm )Not forgetting Maidstone East is still en situ, albeit with an NX panel extension, as well as Lime Street. adding to the list, Borough Market Junction is "preserved" at york, although i have heard some recent momemtum to actually do something to it! theres also power frames at Abbeydale miniature railway in Sheffield. Embsay and Bolton Abbey (I beleive) are installing a power frame into one of their boxes as an ongoing project. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 12:09 #54994 | |
AndyG
![]() 1842 posts |
" said:The frames were a delight to work. There are some bits & pieces still around. Part of South Croydon is at the Great Cockrow Railway (Everglades Junction); bits of North Kent East are incorporated in Hampton Court Junction (Maldon Model Engineers) and bits of Gloucester Road are there and elsewhere; a chunk of Purley is at Bekonscot Model Village; Battersea Park is privately preserved at the S&T Railway(!). (Information from Mark Adlington's Westinghouse 'L' Frame website http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/index.htm )Indeed, the S Croydon frame (all 31 levers of it BTW), is now at Everglades on the Gt Cockcrow Rly, along with with part of Crewe South as Hardwick. Hampton Ct Jn (HJC) with 96 levers has parts from several locations, both main line and Underground, and it's just being commissioned at the present time - see Malden DSME for further info. They are indeed a joy to work, built to last. I'm a signaller at the Gt Cockcrow. Everglades frame is as old as me, but its joints are in better condition than mine! :whistle: I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Last edited: 04/02/2014 at 12:11 by AndyG Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 13:35 #54996 | |
rodney30
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hi there bits of Gloucester Road lever frame is in use at the swanley & new barn railway in swanley kent. and i think a bit of it is at the moors valley railway in dorset. Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 14:47 #54999 | |
Noisynoel
![]() 989 posts |
" said:Actually Maidstone East is a mix of NX and miniature lever frame. Noisynoel Log in to reply |
Victoria ASC - Links & Grades 04/02/2014 at 15:10 #55000 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
" said:" said:Actually Maidstone East is a mix of NX and miniature lever frame. The great prize, of course, would be to do a 'St Albans South' on Woking - 131 lever frame in a listed SR 'Queen Mary' box, complex 4-track layout including a junction and with lots of flexibility. Sadly, the access is from a platform and I rather suspect the TOC would want lots of £££ for leting people get to it. I also have a suspicion you get to the box entrance by walking alongside a running line so that would need rather a lot of sorting out too. Nice fantasy though... Log in to reply |