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Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 12:17 #59546 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:" said:According to the Sectional Appendix, the line is split as follows:" said:So St Blazey to Goonbarrow Jn isn't AB in other words.1. On the Newquay branch the next box towards Newquay, after St. Blazey, is at Goonbarrow Junction which works AB with St. Blazey. Drivers on the Newquay services have to obtain a token from the signalman at Goonbarrow Junction to proceed. Goonbarrow Junction, for anyone who doesn't know, is just on the Par side of the level crossing at Bugle.If I could just expand on this a little, the driver of a down service departs Par station and stops in the old platform at St. Blazey (just around the corner) to collect the token for the section between St. Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction. This token is coloured red. Par to St. Blazey - Absolute Block St. Blazey to Goonbarrow Junction - Electric Token Goonbarrow Junction to Newquay - One Train (Staff) To complicate matters, Goonbarrow Junction has semaphore signals which must be cleared for your train, and the "token" and "staff" are the same style of token, just different colours. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 14:05 #59549 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2055 posts |
" said:" said:Classed as slack if done today though.They do have to call attention the same as everywhere else nowadays. I think operating methods were standardised in BR days?That's not slack working. The GWR and latterly the BR (WR) block regulations required 2-1 to be sent without call attention or acknowledgement. I'm not sure when this was abolished and standardised, but it still stood true in the 1960 block book. As Alistair says you can this at Exeter west but it isn't a local instruction or slack working, its standard regs. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 14:17 #59551 | |
TomOF
452 posts |
This is one I'd love to see done, but whoever ends up with the task of doing this would need to consider all the layout changes that have happened over the last few decades, as some sections have been singled, doubled or redoubled. I'm probably a tad biased towards older stuff but there you go. Newquay, for instance until the 80s had a sizeable layout which allowed for all of those locomotive hauled trains from all over the place and of course there is the china clay traffic to consider which has fluctuated over the years. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 14:21 #59552 | |
bugali
78 posts |
can i just remind every one it is still work in progress and it is not all finished. i don't have any diagrams of the loop that Truro controls. i have used Danny Scroggins's website, http://photos.signallingnotices.org.uk/index.php?col=7 and from the signal box diagrams diagram books by G.A.Pryer Volume 14 and 16. Alistair B Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 14:27 #59553 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2055 posts |
There are quite a few subtle changes (GFs removed, changes in traffic flows), and a couple of more major ones such as Burngullow to Probus being singled, then doubled again. The current layouts would probably be a shade boring to operate. Something from the late 1990s when there was not much difference in the infrastructure but a lot of clay running around all over the place would be much more interesting. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 15:15 #59555 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
Out of interest, would the eastern fringe be extended to include Plymouth and Ivybridge? Such a move would allow chaining with Exeter. I agree that an old-style (Newquay pre-singling, for example) layout would be much more interesting, if one could get all the information required, of course ... Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 15:56 #59559 | |
bugali
78 posts |
i am planing on updating to have the 2 track section on the Par Panel Work Station and the loop on the Truro, (if any one has any diagrams could the pm me, would be a grate help) on the case of the Par to St. Blazey Absolute Block, i just simpaly forgot to put it in and then when i did it i did not have allot of space to but it in. on the Plymouth side of things, i have med a mock up, bit it is a long way from being uploaded to the forum. Alistair B Last edited: 25/04/2014 at 15:56 by bugali Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 16:17 #59560 | |
DaveHarries
1280 posts |
Firstly, thanks to those who clarified the working arrangements between Par and Goonbarrow Junction. I am happy to stand corrected. I am aware of the semaphores at Goonbarrow Junction and am trying to think of a way to photo that box. Problem is that the box will not be easy to photo but I think I have come up with a way of doing it without trespass. " said: Out of interest, would the eastern fringe be extended to include Plymouth and Ivybridge? Such a move would allow chaining with Exeter. Problem is that, when St. Germans SB closed 06-May-1973 the equipment in the box (or, at least, some of it) was, according to a book I have, transferred to a building on the station platform which acts as the fringe point between Liskeard Signalbox and Plymouth panel. Therefore the Albert Bridge is under Plymouth panel as is Ivybridge. Therefore the most easterly fringe would be St. Germans. I agree a Plymouth sim would be fun with the chaining to Exeter and, if it was ever released, a Cornwall sim but Plymouth would probably be a one player sim comprising, as I believe it does, only the main line and the Gunnislake branch, plus the related stations. It will be interesting to see how this is adjusted if / when the bere Alston - Tavistock line is reopened. Dave Last edited: 25/04/2014 at 16:18 by DaveHarries Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 17:32 #59562 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
" said:Problem is that, when St. Germans SB closed 06-May-1973 the equipment in the box (or, at least, some of it) was, according to a book I have, transferred to a building on the station platform which acts as the fringe point between Liskeard Signalbox and Plymouth panel. Therefore the Albert Bridge is under Plymouth panel as is Ivybridge. Therefore the most easterly fringe would be St. Germans. When Plymouth PSB was extended as far as St Germans in 1973, control of St Germans was transferred to a small "signal box" in the station building which became the fringe box to Plymouth PSB. This closed in 1998 with control passing to Plymouth PSB but I'm not sure if any of the equipment there would have been retained for a remote interlocking. Looking at the diagram above, it does not seem to show signal LL10 on the Up Main at Lostwithiel which is after the end of the Up Goods Loop and is a colour light. I believe this signal was only installed when Bodmin Road closed in 1985. Last edited: 25/04/2014 at 22:14 by Zoe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DaveHarries |
Cornwall SimSig 25/04/2014 at 18:49 #59564 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2055 posts |
St Germans today is a remote interlocking controlled by TDM from Plymouth Panel. All the stuff on the ground is the same as it was when the box was in the station building. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 08:55 #59648 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:I am not sure about the locations of P75 & P75R.Having just re-read this thread, I should point out that both of these signals still exist, as I drove a train past them yesterday! " said: Looking at the diagram above, it does not seem to show signal LL10 on the Up Main at Lostwithiel which is after the end of the Up Goods Loop and is a colour light. I believe this signal was only installed when Bodmin Road closed in 1985.Again, correct - LL10 is the Lostwithiel up section signal, and is a colour light. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:00 #59655 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
" said:Again, correct - LL10 is the Lostwithiel up section signal, and is a colour light. There is no section signal at Lostwithiel these days on the Up Main, it's TCB. LL10 was the section signal before Largin closed in 1991. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 11:09 by Zoe Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:14 #59656 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:" said:So Lostwithiel is an absolute block signalbox with no section signal. How does that work then?Again, correct - LL10 is the Lostwithiel up section signal, and is a colour light. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:15 #59657 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
" said:So Lostwithiel is an absolute block signalbox with no section signal. How does that work then? It's only AB to and from Par. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 11:17 by Zoe Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:20 #59658 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:" said:So at what point do I stop driving to AB rules, and drive to TCB rules on the up through Lostwithiel? Can you forward your answer to the other several hundred drivers who sign Cornwall?So Lostwithiel is an absolute block signalbox with no section signal. How does that work then? Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:31 #59660 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
I'm not going to comment on driving but at the end of the day there is no absolute block section heading east from Lostwithiel so it's not possible to have a "section signal" which is defined to be the signal controlling the entrance to an AB or IB section.
Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 11:39 by Zoe Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:36 #59661 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:I'm not going to comment on driving but at the end of the day there is no absolute block section heading east from Lostwithiel so it's not possible to have a "section signal" which is defined to be the signal controlling the entrance to an AB or IB section.I'll drop in to see the Lostwithiel signaller and ask him one day next week. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 11:36 by lazzer Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 11:46 #59662 | |
Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:" said:The Sectional Appendix shows it changing at Lostwithiel signalbox. I would expect all the drivers who sign the route should be aware of that, but should have a copy of the SA to refer to if not." said:So at what point do I stop driving to AB rules, and drive to TCB rules on the up through Lostwithiel? Can you forward your answer to the other several hundred drivers who sign Cornwall?So Lostwithiel is an absolute block signalbox with no section signal. How does that work then? Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:01 #59664 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:" said:I am looking at my SA right now, and it shows a change from AB to TCB at the platforms at Lostwithiel, which is very strange." said:The Sectional Appendix shows it changing at Lostwithiel signalbox. I would expect all the drivers who sign the route should be aware of that, but should have a copy of the SA to refer to if not." said:So at what point do I stop driving to AB rules, and drive to TCB rules on the up through Lostwithiel? Can you forward your answer to the other several hundred drivers who sign Cornwall?So Lostwithiel is an absolute block signalbox with no section signal. How does that work then? I mean, I'm coming along on the up, and I pass LL1, the up distant signal. Let's say it is ON. I therefore slow down, assuming all signals in the Lostwithiel area UP TO AND INCLUDING LL10 to be at danger. If the SA is to be believed to the letter, and TCB starts from the platforms onwards, am I now right in thinking that signals LL6, LL8, and LL10 (the three signals to the east of the platforms) are officially track circuit block signals, and that I can completely ignore the distant signal's danger aspect and expect these signals to be OFF? Rubbish - of course I can't, because I would need a warning that one of them was at danger. That's what LL1 is for - if it is ON, then I have to assume that ALL signals up to and including LL10 are at danger. A change in signalling from AB to TCB cannot occur between LL1 and LL10 (as the SA implies) as it goes against all sensible signalling principles. I should point out that NONE of those three signals (LL6, LL8 or LL10) has an AWS magnet, and I was always under the impression that TCB signals are usually provided with AWS. I don't even think they have TPWS, although I'd have to look more closely next time I drive through there. Regardless of whether there is an AB section in advance of LL10, I simply cannot believe that LL10 is not an absolute block section signal. If it isn't, then no one has ever told me or any of the drivers at my depot who regularly drive trains through Lostwithiel. And having just thought about this, I remember coming up through Lostwithiel a few weeks ago, and the distant signal (LL1 was on). Every signal I approached at danger came off in front of me, including LL6, LL8 and LL10. That's typical absolute block working, and does not suggest the presence of TCB operation. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:11 #59665 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
" said:Regardless of whether there is an AB section in advance of LL10, I simply cannot believe that LL10 is not an absolute block section signal. If it isn't, then no one has ever told me or any of the drivers at my depot who regularly drive trains through Lostwithiel. If there is no absolute block section then it can't be an absolute block section signal, the AB regulations clearly define the term. As for clearing each signal in turn, you'd get the same situation at Liskeard which is TCB in both directions. Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 12:21 by Zoe Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:23 #59666 | |
Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:And having just thought about this, I remember coming up through Lostwithiel a few weeks ago, and the distant signal (LL1 was on). Every signal I approached at danger came off in front of me, including LL6, LL8 and LL10. That's typical absolute block working, and does not suggest the presence of TCB operation.Whilst I'm not 100% on how the rules and regs are worded these days, I don't recall ever having seen any connection between AB/TCB and how (non-section) signals are worked - that would depend entirely on what signals/aspects are provided. I can't for the life of me find a decent copy of Lostwithiel's diagram, it looks as if at least LL6 is semaphore, and hence (in my world) cannot be cleared before you've seen it if the next signal is at danger - otherwise you would be within your rights to claim an "adverse change of aspect"! Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 12:23 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:28 #59667 | |
lazzer
611 posts |
" said:it looks as if at least LL6 is semaphore, and hence (in my world) cannot be cleared before you've seen it if the next signal is at danger - otherwise you would be within your rights to claim an "adverse change of aspect"!All up signals through Lostwithiel are semaphore, except for LL1 (the up distant) and LL10. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:46 #59669 | |
jc92
3649 posts |
" said:" said:there is a difference between Absolute block, and semaphore signals.it looks as if at least LL6 is semaphore, and hence (in my world) cannot be cleared before you've seen it if the next signal is at danger - otherwise you would be within your rights to claim an "adverse change of aspect"!All up signals through Lostwithiel are semaphore, except for LL1 (the up distant) and LL10. regardless of signalling mandate, semaphores will always be maintained at danger until a train is nearly at a stand if the following signal is at danger. equally a colour light signal in an absolute block area will be cleared whether the signal ahead is at danger or not (provided it can display a yellow aspect and has the braking distance available.) I have no understanding of Lostwithiels layout, but if the "section" signal cannot be cleared because the TCB section ahead is occupied, then the signaller will draw the train through each signal in turn, the same as if it was absolute block. the signalling mandate is different to the operation of signals. the rulebook also clarifies that absolute block begins and ceases at the home and section signals respectively which makes complete sense from a signalling point of view. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:47 #59670 | |
JamesN
1591 posts |
" said:" said:While technically correct, at the end of the day lazzer is a driver, where the AB regulations start/terminate affects his driving. He has been taught LL10 is the section signal and therefore it'd be irresponsible for us to speculate or suggest otherwise.Regardless of whether there is an AB section in advance of LL10, I simply cannot believe that LL10 is not an absolute block section signal. If it isn't, then no one has ever told me or any of the drivers at my depot who regularly drive trains through Lostwithiel. Log in to reply |
Cornwall SimSig 28/04/2014 at 12:50 #59672 | |
Zoe
251 posts |
I would hope we can continue to discuss the topic as long as it's clear that at the end of the day this is just a discussion about signalling regulations and that anything posted on here should not be taken in any way as official.
Last edited: 28/04/2014 at 13:53 by Zoe Log in to reply |