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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings?

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 13:03 #60408
maxand
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Here's a typical example - 2Z14-2:

REV EXETER STT (664) 12:20 12:22
REV DML CITY BASIN 12:24 12:26
EXETER CITY BASIN SDG 12:35 12:35


Terminating a Class 2 passenger train at a siding incurs a penalty in SimSig, so why did the TT writer see fit to do it this way? I would have thought it better for 2Z14 to turn into ECS (i.e., passengers disembark), e.g., 5Z14, before terminating.

In real life this implies that any passengers left on the train when it terminates would have to get off at the siding and walk back to civilization, risking life and limb along the way.

This TT contains other examples of this.

Last edited: 13/05/2014 at 13:07 by maxand
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 13:12 #60409
lazzer
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Regardless of what the TT writer intended when they sent 2Z14 onto a freight line, I believe you can negate the penalty by editing the train's TT and ticking the "Use freight linespeeds" box in the "Train characteristics" tab.

This feature is used in the Euston sim in 1980s mode, where a class 1 parcels train needs to use the Parcels Dock, which is technically a freight line. Without the box checked the train will complain that it's been routed onto a goods line.

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 13:14 #60410
jc92
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I don't have the tt to hand. Is it an officers special or staff dmu? It could be with the 2Z code. What's the timetable description for it, and what's the formation on F4 timetable editor.

Its worth noting (in general) that some class 2 staff trains run via goods lines, sidings and depots even today.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 13:52 #60415
JamesN
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" said:
Regardless of what the TT writer intended when they sent 2Z14 onto a freight line, I believe you can negate the penalty by editing the train's TT and ticking the "Use freight linespeeds" box in the "Train characteristics" tab.

This feature is used in the Euston sim in 1980s mode, where a class 1 parcels train needs to use the Parcels Dock, which is technically a freight line. Without the box checked the train will complain that it's been routed onto a goods line.
The caveat, as I said when this was last brought up, is ticking "Use freight linespeeds" will cause the train to do exactly that, which may well be undersirable in a lot of these cases.

There are some changes to the loader in the pipeline which will enable the TT writer to distinguish between running at freight linespeeds, and being allowed on freight lines. Usual timescales apply

An option is provided when you are called by the driver asking whether they can go onto a goods line to allow him to do this. The penalty is minimal and it'd always be my recommendation to take that option rather than fiddling options in the TT which may have other, adverse affects on train running.


" said:


Here's a typical example - 2Z14-2:

REV EXETER STT (664) 12:20 12:22
REV DML CITY BASIN 12:24 12:26
EXETER CITY BASIN SDG 12:35 12:35



Terminating a Class 2 passenger train at a siding incurs a penalty in SimSig, so why did the TT writer see fit to do it this way? I would have thought it better for 2Z14 to turn into ECS (i.e., passengers disembark), e.g., 5Z14, before terminating.

In real life this implies that any passengers left on the train when it terminates would have to get off at the siding and walk back to civilization, risking life and limb along the way.

This TT contains other examples of this.
In reality Max, a lot of little shunts like this aren't actually timetabled. In SimSig, trains can't move around reliably/easily without a TT so a shunt like this has to be timetabled. In this instance, the TT writed has apparently chosen to add the shunt to one of the passenger workings, as opposed to creating a third, seperate TT.

As JC92 pointed out, Class 2 doesn't necessarily mean it has passengers on board. The 10 (0-9) Classes are just generalisations, and subtle variations exist such as test trains, staff trains or officers' specials. Also, if in the unlikely event it is a passenger train, just because it has an arrival and departure time in City Basin Sdg doesn't imply passengers are actually permitted to board or alight there. Real-life WTTs contain significantly more information than is required, relevant or visible in SimSig.

Just crack on and route it in!

EDIT: buggered up quotes

Last edited: 13/05/2014 at 13:54 by JamesN
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 14:02 #60416
Sacro
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" said:
why did the TT writer see fit to do it this way?
Please direct this question to "British Railways Board", as I would assume it was them responsible for this travesty.

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 14:14 #60418
Peter Bennet
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It's not clear to me if this 2Znn is a move related to a special train or just the ECS move from a 2[something else] train. If the former then it may well be correct, if the latter then I'd suggest it is an error and should be 5Znn.

Peter

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 16:13 #60430
Steamer
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Once again, the Timetable Description has the answer:

The timetable description said:
Also a couple of special services will require Goods line acceptance when required.

The train in question is "1005 Bristol TM-Plymouth BLS Charter"- see the description in the Show Timetable window. As the name implies, this is a private charter, and not a regular passenger train, therefore it might visit some unusual lines.

As an aside, the BLS (Branch Line Society) is a group that organises 'Track Bashing' tours up and down the country, which visit some weird and wonderful places that aren't visited by regular passenger trains.

Edit to add: As a general rule, anything running with a 'Z' headcode is a special service, therefore any unusual moves are part of the plan.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
Last edited: 13/05/2014 at 16:38 by Steamer
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 17:23 #60434
jc92
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" said:
the BLS (Branch Line Society)
not the Buffer licking society then?

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 13/05/2014 at 18:03 #60439
Simdmuk
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Thank you Steamer,you are quite correct.This is a special charter added to the timetable to provide a bit of interest and described as 1005 Bristol TM-Plymouth BLS Charter.

This charter is based upon The Branch Lines Societies charter which actually ran on the 10th May 1980. The tour did transverse the Taunton Goods line,Alphington,City Basin line,the Heathfield line before going onto the Plymouth area.It ran onto a few problems ! James N also nails it on the head in regard to : Quote:
The caveat, as I said when this was last brought up, is ticking "Use freight linespeeds" will cause the train to do exactly that, which may well be undesirable in a lot of these cases.
and Quote:
An option is provided when you are called by the driver asking whether they can go onto a goods line to allow him to do this. The penalty is minimal and it'd always be my recommendation to take that option rather than fiddling options in the TT which may have other, adverse affects on train running.

Last edited: 13/05/2014 at 18:04 by Simdmuk
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 13:19 #60472
maxand
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From a player's viewpoint:

Train description (taken from TT)
Quote:
1005 Bristol TM-Plymouth BLS Charter (Cl 101 B812)
Ho hum. Okay, another charter train.

Followed by an alert:
Quote:
Driver of 2Z14 has an incorrect route set at signal 664 (Exeter St Thomas area)
Train's status:
Quote:
Dn Waiting for correct route to be set
Timetable says train terminates at Alphington Rd Sdg, so siding it must be. Tell driver to accept siding.

Followed by error message:
Quote:
2Z14 has been sent onto a goods line
Incurring penalties for trying to follow a TT makes me very unhappy.

Nothing in the TT notes about this until Simdmuk points out:
Quote:
Also a couple of special services will require Goods line acceptance when required.
Nothing in there about sidings, caveats, freight line speeds or charters. What am I, a mind reader?

I can only conclude that this indirect reference was made deliberately to make the TT more challenging. I find this quite unacceptable and tend to side with nnr, who said of another of Simdmuk's Exeter Summer timetables
Quote:
I've just started it - it looks a right stinker!
Don't be deluded by the Description:
Quote:
Although a Sunday service,there is still plenty going on.For newbies and pro's alike.

Just do us a favour and delete the "newbies" bit.

I still haven't seen any explanation as to why this isn't 5Z14, nor what happens to passengers after they disembark at a siding.

Last edited: 14/05/2014 at 13:25 by maxand
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 13:36 #60473
headshot119
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Someone has clearly explained what the train is, and why it carries passengers into a siding. But to reiterate, it's a railtour organised by the Branch Line Society (BLS) who charter trains to visit unusual places, including sidings so people can "scratch them off".
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 13:45 #60475
maxand
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Quote:
But to reiterate, it's a railtour organised by the Branch Line Society (BLS) who charter trains to visit unusual places, including sidings so people can "scratch them off".
That explains the appearance of some of the rolling stock I see left on disused sidings.

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 14:25 #60476
AndyG
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" said:
I still haven't seen any explanation as to why this isn't 5Z14, nor what happens to passengers after they disembark at a siding.
Quite likely the passengers might not disembark, merely the tour having 'visited' the location then returns whence it came.

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 14:48 #60477
northroad
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I always thought (and also looking at the UK Steam tours web page) that steam tours and their equivalent diesel outings were given the coding 1Z**.

Geoff

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 15:07 #60479
maxand
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AndyG wrote:
Quote:
Quite likely the passengers might not disembark, merely the tour having 'visited' the location then returns whence it came.
Yes. On following up 2Z14-1 it becomes 2Z14-2 and so on to 2Z14-4, visiting two sidings along the way. The only peculiarity is that there is no mention of the next service such as N:2Z14-2 at the end of the previous service, but I guess this is because the train terminates outside controlled track (disappears from the area).

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 15:55 #60480
GoochyB
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" said:

Quote:
Also a couple of special services will require Goods line acceptance when required.
Nothing in there about sidings, caveats, freight line speeds or charters. What am I, a mind reader?

Sidings - no need to refer to them in the notes, it's in the timetable that that's where the train goes, no mind reading necessary
Caveats & Freight line speeds - no need, these were in the discussion here about amending the timetable to avoid the driver calling in about goods line, but the timetable isn't set to use freight line speeds for that service, it's set to let him call in (as referred to in the note you quoted) so they aren't relevant to the TT as released
Charters - Doesn't "special services" include charters?

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 19:05 #60491
Simdmuk
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Max I really don't know why you have to be so negative.


Quote:
Ho hum. Okay, another charter train.
There are in this timetable only two charters and one troop train out of several hundred other services.So charters not to be included then as they are "ho hum" ?

You then quote the sequence in order to get the train to traverse the normally non passenger routes. In real life, there are many involved sequences to allow certain special trains to traverse unusual routes,including at times ,extra staff on the ground to clip points etc. This is,if you like, the sims way of dealing with those situations.

Quote:
Incurring penalties for trying to follow a TT makes me very unhappy.
So you have never run a timetable with a problematic setting or had a failure,which may result in you loosing points ? These sim's are not PC point scoring games, they are simulations in which the points are perhaps a guide as to what you should be doing IMHO.



Quote:
Nothing in the TT notes about this until Simdmuk points out:
Also a couple of special services will require Goods line acceptance when required.
That quote WAS and IS in the timetable notes !



Quote:
Nothing in there about sidings, caveats, freight line speeds or charters. What am I, a mind reader?
You don't need to be. The sims are just as much about learning and using your brain in addition to endless repetitive actions.



Quote:
I can only conclude that this indirect reference was made deliberately to make the TT more challenging. I find this quite unacceptable and tend to side with [b]nnr, who said of another of Simdmuk's Exeter Summer timetables
I've just started it - it looks a right stinker![/b]

Firstly,yes I have not done a point by point account of how to signal each train into every siding etc. I don't believe in spoon feeding. I think the timetable in most cases is fairly easy to follow in what you need to do.

Secondly,in real life signallers jobs are challenging ! Many situations can hit them daily such as failures,unusual movements,cancellations,unscheduled movements,incidents etc etc. The point of SimSig is to simulate signalling scenarios.

Thirdly, NNR was I think you'll find, being complementary in stating "it looks like a real stinker" not derogatory as you seem to imply.


Quote:
Just do us a favour and delete the "newbies" bit.


Perhaps if this timetable is not to your liking ,you can always not use it rather than slag off the writer. Perhaps I may "do you a favour" and not submit any more. You obviously have no idea what is involved. I have spent money,, a hell of a lot of time which I really don't have, producing these (and others which I was working on) and whilst they may not be perfect or to everyone's liking, I like to think they give some enjoyment.

Quote:
I still haven't seen any explanation as to why this isn't 5Z14, nor what happens to passengers after they disembark at a siding.


This has been explained several times,so again:

This was a private charter in which the passengers travel over unusual lines. As a rule,they don't disembark in sidings (although once open a time you could !)hence no change to an empty stock headcode as the train is not empty .

I have myself traveled on one such charter which traversed the Alphington Branch in which no one got off and the train was head coded 1Zxx throughout.

This charter was a real train and actually traversed said lines. The head code 2Zxx is sometimes given to special trains which consist of DMU stock.

I produced this timetable so that a solo player could comfortably use the sim (and include a few extras so as not to make it too boring or repetitive,in addition to being able to use a few sidings that would not be used with a straight forward WTT)and as far as is known,I have had no other complaints about it.

Last edited: 15/05/2014 at 00:02 by Simdmuk
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 19:37 #60494
jc92
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it wouldn't necessarily be inauthentic for the driver to call about the route, even when booked that way. local instructions can indicate lines are suitable for passenger use under certain circumstances, but may require the driver to stop and confirm he has the correct route, or indeed just to call in and confirm all precautions required have been taken.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 14/05/2014 at 20:26 #60505
Peter Bennet
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If the real problem is the accumulation of penalty points then why not make a sticky of a suitable colour and note the penalty points which can then be adjusted back at the end of the day.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 15/05/2014 at 13:40 #60539
maxand
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Quote:
If the real problem is the accumulation of penalty points then why not make a sticky of a suitable colour and note the penalty points which can then be adjusted back at the end of the day.
Interesting suggestion, thanks. I know about pressing F5 to display Performance Analysis, but how does one adjust penalty points? I thought they were decided and fixed by SimSig.

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 15/05/2014 at 18:26 #60574
Lardybiker
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Peter is not suggesting you change the score in the sim as the score is fixed so you can't. What he is suggesting is that *IF* the score is that important to you, you could keep track of the number of points you have been incorrectly given, and at the end of the game, work out what your score would have been manually.
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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 15/05/2014 at 19:41 #60579
arabianights
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" said:
Max I really don't know why you have to be so negative.
Don't worry about it, to impartial lurkers like myself hissy fits like that just look silly.

(No comment on "merits" of position)

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Exeter Summer 1980 - why Class 2 trains routed into sidings? 21/05/2014 at 20:39 #60793
y10g9
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Max, in answering a different question of your, i stumbled across this Website
Might be useful for you to look at to understand about this charter train and why it is taking goods line, esp this page as it is basically the same charter that you encountered

Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 20:41 by y10g9
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