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| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 19:24 #60782 | |
smw
6 posts |
I'm not familiar with that area but when I browse through some pictures on the internet it looks like the eastern headshunt is the remaining part of what used to be the Taunton avoiding lines. As seen on Google Maps it's a rather long dead end and is used as a entrance/exit for engineering trains.
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| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 19:33 #60784 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:is there any reason the east headshunt is so named if it is a headshunt? surely that would imply its a dead end siding like the west headshunt, rather than a yard warranting an entry exit point....unless it is?According to Quail, there is a connection from the sidings within Fairwater Yard into the east end headshunt, so a train could back out of the fan, into the headshunt, then out onto the main line. Presumably, the connection from Yard to headshunt is controlled by the Yard staff, with the signaller only becoming involved for movements heading out into the Reception line. In fact, Quail (August 2010) shows the connection from the west end of the yard to the Reception as out of use, so the above is probably the only method of getting a train in or out of Fairwater these days. EDIT TO ADD: Google map of the East end of the layout. The bottom track leaving the yard joins a connection from the Reception line underneath Staplegrove Road bridge, with the headshunt to the east of the bridge. As above, I assume movements from the Yard into the headshunt are controlled by Yard staff, with the signaller only being involved with trains using the connection from the Reception line. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 19:43 by Steamer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, maxand |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 19:45 #60785 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
" said:is there any reason the east headshunt is so named if it is a headshunt? surely that would imply its a dead end siding like the west headshunt, rather than a yard warranting an entry exit point....unless it is? The east headshunt is a headshunt as labled in the sim, as trains leaving the reception in that direction only have the headshunt available to them. See first attachment. Green line is Up main, Red: Down Main, Dark Blue: Relief, Purple: REC (Reception) and grey is the simulated section of the headshunt. trains back into the head shunt, (which in reality goes almost to taunton station, then in the orange cirlce near staplegrove road, there is a set of point allowing access to fairwater yard. Hence the headshunt is ann entry point to the sim since these points are hand points, and there is no track circuits in operation. This can also be seen here  the bottom dotted line on the left is into the yard, the next one up is the REC from arrow to the crossover to the relief line (which is the reversible line). The East headshunt is the continuation of the REC to taunton station area (the long deadend line) This headshunt is labled in the sim presumably to assist the operator with working out where the train that has just phoned requesting permission to enter the sim. In attachment 2 this is the west end of fairwater yard, The running lines are the same, the light blue shows the simulated part of the yard, and the yellow the West headshunt. This only has access from the yard, and does not have access anywhere else, hence why it is not an enty/exit point in the sim and is simple a dead end track with no track circuit. steamer posted while i was annotating google maps and posting Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 19:46 by y10g9 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, Steamer |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 20:20 #60788 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
to add to that, i have found a photo taken by geoff plumb of the east headshunt track taken from sig E613, the shunt signal at the end of the REC line. looking further along, before the points come in from the yard, there is a stop board on the head shunt and just beyond on the right (hard to see it) is the point lever for the hand points. This Photo of the west end shows the points from the REC and Yard onto the relief line (this train is a Branch Line Special and was a Charter train that ran down the REC line at fairwater). On the right just visible is the shunt signal from the Headshunt. (if you scroll through the set it also goes on to show the layout of Exeter New yard too) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 20:30 #60789 | |
jc92
3687 posts |
thanks guys, that answers that one. glad the thread finally became constructive 
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 21:19 #60796 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
" said:it looks like the eastern headshunt is the remaining part of what used to be the Taunton avoiding lines. As seen on Google Maps it's a rather long dead end and is used as a entrance/exit for engineering trains. Spot on. It is indeed what remains of the former avoiding lines. Some nice pictures on the excellent Taunton Trains site showing the now rusty West Headshunt here and the East here with a reversing engineers train. Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 21/05/2014 at 21:30 #60798 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
[img size=600]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Fairwater_73133.jpg[/img] Another view here with a loco and 4 wagons from the TRT train using the headshunt. Incidently for those who wan to know, just offshot on the camera side of the container is the old slik mill crossing (the photo being taken from the bridge. (more info on silk mill can be found here, with shots of the headshunt again) Last edited: 21/05/2014 at 21:30 by y10g9 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TimTamToe |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 03:33 #60801 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
And as you mentioned Silk Mill ... :whistle: http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/MEMORIES-SILKMILL.htm Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 14:27 #60807 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Thanks to y10g9 for maps and pics. What a difference they make! As your .jpg pics of Google Maps were a little on the blurry side, I've taken the liberty of posting .png versions. You can view the map directly in Google using the following links: Fairwater Yard West Fairwater Yard East    It all makes sense now. dwelham313 wrote in post #5: Quote: 623 controls exit from Fairwater West Headshunt, it is shown on the panel as a single ended siding (known as a headshunt) denoted by the grey 'bufferstops' at the end of the siding. It differs from East Headshunt in that the East headshunt can be used for trains to exit the sim.However, here is a more complete definition of headshunt. Quote: A headshunt (US: escape track) is a short length of track, provided to release locomotives at terminal platforms, or to allow shunting to take place clear of main lines.This Wikipedia article goes on to describe Terminal and Reversing headshunts, Run-arounds, etc. So a headshunt is more than just a dead-end siding. In addition to the grey solid rectangle designating a buffer stop, headshunts have a grey triangle signifying that a route can be set into them. Let's take a fresh look at how SimSig replicates this area. Two errors stand out. First, the real Fairwater (FW) West Headshunt is not off to the left of signal 623, as many seem to think, but rather that tiny stub to the left of the REC line, which fits both the map and the definition of a headshunt - a line to permit locos to do a run-around. If FW Yard had two crossovers in different directions into it, the way REC has from RELIEF, then it would be possible to use SimSig's version to do a runaround. But alas, no. The true Headshunt West lacks a buffer stop and entry triangle. Second, in real life FW Yard does have a second crossover permitting runarounds (marked "Junction"  on the eastern Google map, which nicely completes the design, i.e., FW Yard can be entered by trains approaching from either Up or Down directions. Fairwater Yard is actually quite extensive, as y10g9's photos show.Now the confusion about whether HEADSHUNT belongs to REC or FAIRWATER YARD can be resolved. It belongs to both. There's no way a loco entering from FW yard can runaround using the existing "Frwtr West Hdshnt" as there's no return crossover, e.g., from 620 back to FW Yard! On the subject of where blame lies for confusingly named timing points, it's now clear to me that these are built into the sim and no liberties can be taken with them, so I apologize to Simdmuk for maligning him in this way! It wouldn't be obvious to anyone who hasn't tried writing a TT. "Logic and common sense" come a poor second to adequate documentation. Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 14:42 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 14:40 #60810 | |
--miki--
68 posts |
" said:First, the real Fairwater (FW) West Headshunt is not off to the left of signal 623, as many seem to think, but rather that tiny stub to the left of the REC line, which fits both the map and the definition of a headshunt - a line to permit locos to do a run-around.Maybe you should take another look to the map you posted. The headshunt is behing signal 623 and the stub to the left of REC line is simply a catch point. If the headshunt actually was the stub, how would you signal a train there? Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 14:41 #60811 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:Wrong. A headshunt is a dead-end siding, in fact all of those shown on the Wikipedia page are dead-end sidings. They may have more than one line feeding into them, but the fact is the siding comes to an abrupt end. All sidings (except some controlled by ground frames) have a grey exit triangle, otherwise you wouldn't be able to set a route into them. The grey bar at the end of some sidings is used in SimSig to indicate that the siding isn't an entry point. Quote: Let's take a fresh look at how SimSig replicates this area. Two errors stand out. First, the real Fairwater (FW) West Headshunt is not off to the left of signal 623, as many seem to think, but rather that tiny stub to the left of the REC line, which fits both the map and the definition of a headshunt - a line to permit locos to do a run-around. If FW Yard had two crossovers in different directions into it, the way REC has from RELIEF, then it would be possible to use SimSig's version to do a runaround. But alas, no. The true Headshunt West lacks a buffer stop and entry triangle.Wrong. Fairwater West Headshunt is the line to the left of 623. It can be used to allow run-rounds or other shunting to be done from the main yard sidings without encroaching on the Down relief. The stub at the far end of the REC line is just a catch point, and you can't send trains down it. The catch point can be seen in this photo- it's just to the left of the far end of the concrete troughing that heads away from the '15' sign and equipment cabinet. The photo was taken from the Down Relief, with 623 signal prominent. Quote: Second, in real life FW Yard does have a second crossover permitting runarounds (marked "Junction"Wrong. There are two ways for a train entering Fariwater Yard from the Taunton direction to access the yard, both of which require at least one reversal. First, enter Fairwater REC line and reverse behind 617, enter the Headshunt to the east of Fariwater yard, and reverse again to enter the main yard. This second reversal, and points from the East headshunt into Fairwater Yard is under the control of Fairwater Yard staff, not the signaller. Second, reverse on the Down Relief behind 621, and enter Fairwater Yard using the line marked as such on the simulation, Quote: Now the confusion about whether HEADSHUNT belongs to REC or FAIRWATER YARD can be resolved. It belongs to both. There's no way a loco entering from FW yard can runaround using the existing "Frwtr West Hdshnt" as there's no return crossover, e.g., from 620 back to FW Yard!Wrong. A loco running round a train within Fairwater Yard can leave the west end, enter the West Headshunt (under the control of the signaller) , reverse behind 623 signal, proceed back through the yard on a different line, enter the East Headshunt, reverse, and rejoin it's train. As above, the movement into the East headshunt takes place entirely under the control of yard staff. EDIT to add: Railway naming conventions don't follow hard and fast rules, and the only way to appreciate them is to get to know them. This involves lateral thinking and not being afraid to modify your existing beliefs. As I've said above, clinging to a manual every time you come across something new will not benefit you in the long run. Everyone here started from knowing nothing (I did about 6 years ago), and everyone gained experience and developed their instincts by appreciating the simulations for what they were, and learning from them. May I suggest you start to think about problems, and employ a bit of trial and error. The 'save' function is useful here. A final question- if you don't enjoy SimSig as a problem-solving and puzzle exercise (as most computer games ultimately are- the user manual on those games doesn't tell you how to solve the puzzles), why do you play it? There seems to be very little point in slavishly following a set of instructions guiding you through absolutely everything. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 21:26 by Steamer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: LucasLCC, maxand, Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 14:45 #60812 | |
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TimTamToe
664 posts |
" said:I'll think you'll find that the west headshunt IS behind (to the left) signal 623. loco would use it and then go back into the yard to run round. The Fairwater Yard is not part of Exeter's control and so isn't shown EDIT: Miki & Steamer posted a more explanatory reply while I was typing Gareth Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 14:48 by TimTamToe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Simdmuk |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 15:13 #60814 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
" said:Let's take a fresh look at how SimSig replicates this area.Oh yes please, let's! " said: First, the real Fairwater (FW) West Headshunt is not off to the left of signal 623, as many seem to think, but rather that tiny stub to the left of the REC line, which fits both the map and the definition of a headshunt - a line to permit locos to do a run-around.Um, on the map you marked that piece of track behind 623 as the headshunt? Furthermore, where in SimSig have you seen a headshunt without a protecting signal? " said: Two errors stand out.  It'll take a lot more experience on your part until you can make posts like this with such tenacity. Until you know what you're talking about, for example, until you understand what goes into making a simulation or timetable, I'd suggest not posting in a manner which suggests you pretend you do. Using logic and common sense before you post about something would be the first step in this. By the way, I'd suggest not putting all of your trust in google maps which isn't actually completely accurate when it comes to railway lines. More specific maps are available for this purpose. e: beaten. Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 15:27 by peterb Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 15:37 #60815 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Quote:It'll take a lot more experience on your part until you can make posts like this with such tenacity. Until you know what you're talking about, for example, until you understand what goes into making a simulation or timetable, I'd suggest not posting in a manner which suggests you pretend you do. Using logic and common sense before you post about something would be the first step in this."Until"? It's been years and Maxand still hasn't stopped trying to call out everyone else as wrong. I honestly don't get why he's still allowed on the forum - the constant stream of snide comments aimed at developers, TT writers and anyone who tries to help him isn't at all in keeping with the rest of the discussions here. It's no wonder that even the most polite and patient people here are saying things that they usually wouldn't, after consistently being insulted by the very person who is asking for their assistance. Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 15:39 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following users said thank you: BarryM, Steamer, TimTamToe, lazzer, peterb, delticfan, --miki--, robert, MikeW, Meld |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 16:15 #60816 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:I'd like to expand on this point, using an example within this thread. If you look back at post 22, JC92 thought he'd discovered a bug within the sim. He wrote a post, outlining his theory, and asked if he was correct. Within the post, he implicitly acknowledged the fact he might be wrong. A few other people did some detective work, found the true 'off sim' layout, and explained what was going on. JC92 then thanked those users, and everyone was happy and wiser. Of course, JC92 could've charged on with something like "I looked up the definition of a headshunt on Wikipedia, it must be a dead end siding, I'm right, the simulation is stupid and wrong, the developer's a moron, no-one bothered to test the simulation, the Wiki's rubbish, change it now". At which point, people who knew what they were talking about (who would be riled by JC92's conduct) would reply, and there would be a drawn out battle to establish the truth, with each point being a long-drawn out process with JC92 insisting he was right until faced with 3 separate reasons why he was wrong. At the end of the day, the facts are the same. However, the former course of action is much more pleasant, blood pressure is kept at healthy levels on both sides, and everyone leaves happy- JC92 knows more than he did, and those 'in the know' feel warm inside because they helped someone out, rather than feeling like they'd just been in a battle. I apologise if this sounds patronising, and I only picked on JC92's post because it was convenient, but I felt it necessary to get the point across. If you look at any other thread on this Forum, bug reports are good-natured, and people apologise if what they thought was a bug is in fact correct behaviour. They also take the time to thank the developer/TT writer for their hard work- after all, 99% of what's there is excellent. To echo Danny's point, I try not to get personal in my replies, but it's difficult when faced with a continual barrage of snide comments and (frankly unreasonable) demands for perfection. I wonder how long it'll be before one of my TTs is in the firing line, and I'm held to account for every movement and setting. So, can we please stop all the arrogance and cheap shots at people who are doing a lot of hard work for free? "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, lazzer, BarryM, LucasLCC, onlydjw, y10g9, MikeW, TimTamToe, Simdmuk, sloppyjag, delticfan |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 16:37 #60817 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
" said:I think the lesson here is knowing how and when to make a meaningful contribution to a thread. Clearly, post #30 was not a) the right time, since JC92's issue had been resolved, and b) it didn't offer anything of any worth or indeed accuracy to the thread. All the "contribution" has served to do really is derail the whole thread, and derailments are something of course we don't want on here. So moderators, to add my 2p, please please do consider having a conflab regarding how long this can last for. Is a stream of worthless contributions good for the forum? I for one am a bit scared by how quiet the moderation team can sometimes appear to be in responding to issues - please do consider using the authority you have! Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 16:40 by peterb Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 18:06 #60822 | |
postal
5265 posts |
During the various gold-rushes there have been throughout the centuries, there is a recurrent theme of prospectors panning through tons of dirt in order to find the nugget of gold that would pay the wages for the day. In fairness to Maxand, amidst all of the stuff with which people take issue he has made a few suggestions that have actually been seen to have value and have even in some cases led to changes in the core code and features offered by SimSig. While there have been some threads lately which have suffered from destructive rather than constructive debate, I think we should be wary about cutting anyone out because a lot of what they post is deemed to be worthless or less attractive than that. There have been other posters before Maxand who have been equally guilty of not conforming to the Forum stereotype but any attempt to ban someone is doomed to failure because the banned person can easily rejoin under an alias and a newly created hotmail or gmail address. I have taken issue with a lot that Maxand has posted over the years and no doubt will continue to do so while he insists on posting ill-informed or incorrect information posing as the definitive article but there is no way I would like to see anyone barred from the Forum just because they insist on posting information and/or suggestions with which most of us do not agree. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 22/05/2014 at 18:06 by postal Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TimTamToe, lazzer, Steamer |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 20:11 #60830 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:If you mean an exit signal, then there will be one when I get round to refreshing Cambridge. The headshunt from the south end of the reception lines lost its exit signal during the changes to create platforms 7 and 8. My other ongoing new sim (that I deliberately haven't named on the forum) also has a headshunt with no exit signal. Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 20:17 #60831 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:Larbert DGL - I've added a virtual signal for train control purposes.If you mean an exit signal, then there will be one when I get round to refreshing Cambridge. The headshunt from the south end of the reception lines lost its exit signal during the changes to create platforms 7 and 8. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 22/05/2014 at 20:21 #60832 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:" said:I assume they have exit triangles though?If you mean an exit signal, then there will be one when I get round to refreshing Cambridge. The headshunt from the south end of the reception lines lost its exit signal during the changes to create platforms 7 and 8. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 23/05/2014 at 18:11 #60868 | |
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delticfan
476 posts |
Been reading this thread (and others) with interest and much concern. While I admit that there are members on here with much more technical knowledge and insight than I, I have noticed that some of the points put over by certain people may have been a little heavy-handed and dare I say nit-picking? When I'm running my sims I am usually lost in the minute-to-minute control of the sim and enjoying planning ahead for any possible problem moves. I appreciate them for what they are and just stick to the running of the trains. If I come up against something that I'm not sure how to deal with, whatever it may be, I will post a query. Usually, back will come an answer from someone in the know, for which I am always grateful. Some of the points raised on the forum I don't begin to understand, but the (forceful?) way they are sometimes pitched has me rather concerned that, if taken to extremes, it could cause the TT writers and developers to consider pulling out of providing the very thing we are all here to enjoy - running excellent simulations. Personally, it has taken me a considerable amount of time to get to grips with Simsig, but I am now sufficiently confident to have purchased some of the West Mids sims, which are pure magic. These are completely my personal views, and my apologies for possible straying further off-topic. Thanks to all involved in Simsig, and long may you continue. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, postal, Steamer, maxand |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 23/05/2014 at 20:16 #60875 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I lost the will to read-on some posts ago. It does strike me what a pedantic lot we are. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 23/05/2014 at 20:52 #60877 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
" said:I lost the will to read-on some posts ago.If someone from HMRC thinks we are pedantic . . . . “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: y10g9, JamesN |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 23/05/2014 at 21:48 #60878 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
Surely it would have been much easier and a lot less hassle/argument if , after the answer had been given he just left it at that, I dread to think how much posting there will be when he progresses to the Edinburgh 85 TT :whistle: Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, delticfan, peterb, postal, lazzer |
| Exeter Summer Sunday 1980 - Where is Fairwater West Headshunt? 24/05/2014 at 02:07 #60884 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
Perhaps Simsig should have a warning to those wishing to join first up. "Warning! Persons joining Simsig need to be Rail Orientated. Please refer to our Privacy Policy", or similar. Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Last edited: 24/05/2014 at 02:12 by BarryM Log in to reply |
