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| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 19/06/2014 at 17:04 #61854 | |
Steamer
3984 posts 
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" said:As I understand it, are only cleared from track circuits when the track circuit becomes unoccupied. In the original example, the route over the track circuit covering Newton Abbot P3 is still locked, and will only be released when the track circuit clears. So it's probably not a bug, because the subroute is still locked. Quote: 2) When no subroute is locked, if the signaller attempts to set a route where permissive working is not allowed, a specific error message to this effect should appear.To add slightly to Postal's point: PC-Rail does this, and it's incredibly annoying, not to mention (I assume) unrealistic. There's nothing to stop setting a route directly behind another train- the signal is held at red until train ahead clears the section. On 'main' lines (i.e. not sidings) permissive working is the exception rather than the rule, and as such locations which are permissive are listed in the manual. If there's nothing there to say it's permissive, it probably isn't. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 19/06/2014 at 17:04 by Steamer Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 09:11 #61871 | |
kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:
Two large manual signalboxes for the station itself (I believe I'm right in thinking Newton Abbot East was the biggest in the country after York Loco Yard went, with 280-odd levers), plus another at Aller Junction with a 4-track main line doing an 'all ways' split into two 2-track lines (plus a goods loop on the down main). The West box was no trivial job either, with over 150 levers. No less than six running lines between the two boxes, with signals for permissive working on the up roads at least. (They might also have been for attaching & detaching. That didn't need Permissive Block as such, which relates again to Max's initial query - PB was about separate trains following each other not about shunts on & off a stationary train.) Absolute block working all round, almost certainly with local bell codes for shunting & such and certainly with routing codes (which also indicated non-stop trains) on the down, perhaps on the up as well. Summer Saturday traffic in the 1950s & '60s that meant trains galore with just about everything for the Plymouth direction taking a pilot (assisting loco on the front rather than a banker on the rear) at the West end. Very heaven... such a pity I was too late to get up there & have a play 
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 10:09 #61873 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
" said:Going back to cover a pre-1985 era would involve a lot of layout changes on the sim as a whole - it got discussed many moons ago (probably on the old forum when the sim first came out). The layout in Exeter was very different (down through between p1 & p3, p4 & DT both connected to the Central line) [in fact, I'm not sure if P1 was connected to Central or only to the DM]. Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 10:33 #61875 | |
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Steamer
3984 posts
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" said:" said:Blockpost have a simulation of Exeter West box in the 1960s. At that time, the Down Main platform (P1) was connected to the Central lines but only via a siding. I think the box was altered at some point in the mid-60s though, so it might have been connected properly in the 1980s.Going back to cover a pre-1985 era would involve a lot of layout changes on the sim as a whole - it got discussed many moons ago (probably on the old forum when the sim first came out). The layout in Exeter was very different (down through between p1 & p3, p4 & DT both connected to the Central line) [in fact, I'm not sure if P1 was connected to Central or only to the DM]. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 10:33 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 10:44 #61876 | |
Simdmuk
155 posts |
" said:Peter , the rationalisation of Newton Abbot was part of the resignalling plan for Exeter which included new layouts at Taunton and Exeter. " said: Your correct GoochyB.There was the through line between platforms 1 & 3 and Platform 1 only accessed the down main (with a small spur which used to serve a carridge shed up until the 70's). I have enclosed some sketches I made in the early 80's to show the layout at Newton Abbot  and compare it to the present day plan ! 
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 10:45 by Simdmuk Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 13:00 #61879 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Part of a 1960 weekday simulation with Exeter West undertaken on September 10th 2011. The duty signalman is Peter Jordan and the 'booking boy' is Andrew Law. All bell codes, block indications from adjacent boxes and track circuit lights on the diagram are operated from the computer-based (BlockPost) simulator. [video]http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfGUaVqSsKE[/video]
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| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 13:59 #61880 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
After all these posts I'm still confused. Do the majority consider that in my original post "Subroute locked in opposite direction" represents a minor bug that needs to be investigated further, or is the sim behaving normally? Thanks, sorry if I appear dim.
Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 14:00 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 14:12 #61882 | |
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Steamer
3984 posts
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It's not a bug- the subroute is still set over the track circuit covering Newton Abbot platform 3, hence the route from Heathfield fails to set. If the route was permissive, I assume setting the route would override the existing one. I'm fairly sure the above explanation is correct, but in any case Peter confirmed there wasn't a bug in post 25. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 15:08 #61884 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:At that time, the Down Main platform (P1) was connected to the Central lines but only via a siding. I think the box was altered at some point in the mid-60s though, so it might have been connected properly in the 1980s.What siding is that? The spur siding on the Central and South Devon sidings off the Down Main Platform were not connected as far as I'm aware. However, you're right on the point about alterations (although I can't comment on the date) - West box was designed with these in mind, and the space for lever 118 was later filled with the relevant signal from P1 to Central. " said: I believe I'm right in thinking Newton Abbot East was the biggest in the country after York Loco Yard went, with 280-odd leversReading Main Line West (210) was larger than Newton Abbot East (206), which outlived Loco Yard (closed 1951), although NA East later went on to outlive Reading ML W. Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 15:21 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 15:52 #61885 | |
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Zoe
252 posts |
" said:Reading Main Line West (210) was larger than Newton Abbot East (206), which outlived Loco Yard (closed 1951), although NA East later went on to outlive Reading ML W. Bristol East had 368 levers (or at least space in the frame for that many) although this was of course a miniture lever slide frame controlling a GWR colour light installation. Not all of these were used though since Old Station box was retained rather than transferred to Bristol East as originally planned. Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 16:02 by Zoe Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 16:27 #61887 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
" said:" said:The South Devon sidings were never connected to the central lines, as the Incline climbed up past them, the siding emanating from 100 points on the incline is a spur to sit pilot locos in prior to piloting trains up the bank and is not a through siding. access in 1960 was prom the down main, and P3 only, with access from P4 via dollies, although this was later upgraded to a fully signalled passenger movement. the 1984 diagram for the box still shows no connection from P1 to the Central lines.At that time, the Down Main platform (P1) was connected to the Central lines but only via a siding. I think the box was altered at some point in the mid-60s though, so it might have been connected properly in the 1980s.What siding is that? The spur siding on the Central and South Devon sidings off the Down Main Platform were not connected as far as I'm aware. However, you're right on the point about alterations (although I can't comment on the date) - West box was designed with these in mind, and the space for lever 118 was later filled with the relevant signal from P1 to Central. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 16:29 by jc92 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 17:55 #61888 | |
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Steamer
3984 posts
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" said:" said:Oops! Sorry, saw those two lines down in the corner and assumed the joined.At that time, the Down Main platform (P1) was connected to the Central lines but only via a siding. I think the box was altered at some point in the mid-60s though, so it might have been connected properly in the 1980s.What siding is that? The spur siding on the Central and South Devon sidings off the Down Main Platform were not connected as far as I'm aware. However, you're right on the point about alterations (although I can't comment on the date) - West box was designed with these in mind, and the space for lever 118 was later filled with the relevant signal from P1 to Central. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 17:55 by Steamer Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 19:07 #61891 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:After all these posts I'm still confused. Do the majority consider that in my original post "Subroute locked in opposite direction" represents a minor bug that needs to be investigated further, or is the sim behaving normally? Thanks, sorry if I appear dim.I'm not sure it's a matter of what people think (majority or otherwise), whether it's a bug is a matter of fact that can't be overturned by the tyranny of democracy. As I understand the facts of the matter the report is correct: the sub-route is locked in the opposite direction. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 19:59 by Peter Bennet Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 20/06/2014 at 23:03 #61895 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Oops! Sorry, saw those two lines down in the corner and assumed the joined.Sadly not! This photo shows the lead for South Devon Sidings curving off to the left past signal 106. The black lump (sleepers, I suspect) just to the left of 106's post marks the former location of the Central Spur - this photo has the spur buffer stops still in place, despite the track not being there! Last edited: 20/06/2014 at 23:04 by Danny252 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 21/06/2014 at 00:39 #61896 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Peter Bennet said: Quote: I'm not sure it's a matter of what people think (majority or otherwise), whether it's a bug is a matter of fact that can't be overturned by the tyranny of democracy. As I understand the facts of the matter the report is correct: the sub-route is locked in the opposite direction.In my original post, AFAIK, no subroutes had been set at the time I tried to set a route from Heathfield into P3. There was a train (5V47) occupying P3 and facing Up as I recall. Does the fact of its presence mean that there is a subroute beneath it? In which case, as it is facing Up, this subroute would be conflicting. The fact that neither of the signal stems on either side of it are lit would seem to be against the presence of an underlying subroute. I'm still a bit confused by all this. I have noticed that when no train is occupying P3 there is no impediment to setting a route from Heathfield into P3; however, this does not involve permissive working. Last edited: 21/06/2014 at 00:42 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 21/06/2014 at 00:53 #61897 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2078 posts |
" said:" said:You can set a route in the same direction with a subroute locked. This is providing that no points in that subroute or any subsequent subroutes before the next signal do not need to be moved. If you could not do this then auto functions and restroking behind a train would not work.No, you can't set another route if one is already locked, same direction or opposite. If permissive working is not allowed and the subroutes required aren't locked then the signal will just remain at red. " said: " said:Without wishing to cause trouble, there is a bug here.After all these posts I'm still confused. Do the majority consider that in my original post "Subroute locked in opposite direction" represents a minor bug that needs to be investigated further, or is the sim behaving normally? Thanks, sorry if I appear dim.I'm not sure it's a matter of what people think (majority or otherwise), whether it's a bug is a matter of fact that can't be overturned by the tyranny of democracy. As I understand the facts of the matter the report is correct: the sub-route is locked in the opposite direction. First of all, it is worth noting that the track circuit and ground signal numbers in the sim are not the same as those on the ground. I will refer to their real designations and then the sim designations in brackets afterwards. Before anyone complains, this is all logged on the issue tracker for if Peter updates the sim, but it is also worth noting that the wrong numbers do not affect how the sim plays. 5V47 has arrived at Newton Abbot Platform 3 in the Up direction, and stands on Track Circuit RJ (Sim ST), which is a three part track circuit in reality. 0V47 is standing at E706 ground signal (672 on the sim). The overlap has timed off so we can assume that 5V47 has been there a while. Platform 3 is permissively signalled. The route locking on track circuit RJ will release under either of two scenarios. 1. RJ track circuit occupied for 6 seconds with RH track circuit (Sim SS) clear. 2. RJ track circuit occupied for 48 seconds. Either of these two conditions will release the opposing locking, which is the initial subject of this thread, so we can conclude that there is a bug here, which I will log once I have finished this post. With the opposing locking free, which in the scenario Maxand has shown here it should be, you would be able to set a route from E706 to E388. The only controls at aspect level in this signal are that there is no route locked on RJ track circuit in the Up direction, no route locked on RK track circuit (Sim SU) in the Up direction, RK track circuit has to be claer, and points 973 (Sim 894) are detected reverse AND locked. There is no suggestion of RJ needing to be clear, therefore the signal should come off. Peter, Mantis 11012 applies. Last edited: 21/06/2014 at 00:56 by Stephen Fulcher Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 21/06/2014 at 06:15 #61898 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:" said:I think we are talking at cross purposes here" said:You can set a route in the same direction with a subroute locked. This is providing that no points in that subroute or any subsequent subroutes before the next signal do not need to be moved. If you could not do this then auto functions and restroking behind a train would not work.No, you can't set another route if one is already locked, same direction or opposite. If permissive working is not allowed and the subroutes required aren't locked then the signal will just remain at red. 1 is there a coding bug that does not allow the Permissive working - yes there is. 2 is the the report that there is opposite route locking in place (as currently coded) a false report - no its not. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Heathfield subroute locked in opposite direction 21/06/2014 at 12:47 #61901 | |
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LucasLCC
94 posts |
" said:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is what Stephen is saying is a case where: When RJ (or ST) is occupied for a certain period of time, as dictated in Stephens' post, then the locking will released. Meaning that any routes then set into Platform 3 will not result in a 'Subroute locked in opposite direction', given how it is in fact no longer locked? This should mean that the route from Heathfield should set, regardless of the aspect it then displays (I'm unsure if the signal will clear, something that Stephen would know, I'm sure!), as the route isn't locked, and it should be treated as any other non-permissively worked track circuit. Lucas Log in to reply |
