Removal of ETD from Delayed Trains

In real life, if something goes wrong with a train, the signaller won't know exactly when it'll be on the move again, thus I often feel let off pretty softly by the phone call telling me when the train is expected to depart. Invariably the train leaves within a minute or two either way of it's ETD, so, while in real life you may hold following services to await developments, in SimSig you know you can send a train right up behind a delayed service without holding it up indefinitely.

Removal of an ETD from delay calls could be an F3 option, as some people might prefer the more helpful messages.

Equally the odd service that ends up delayed for considerably longer than anticipated could be just as entertaining...

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

" said:

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

I don't think so, though sometimes it will be "should only be 10 minutes to fix, bobby", and other times it will be "have you any idea how long you'll be there so I know whether to try to divert stuff via Ely?".

" said:

" said:

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

I don't think so, though sometimes it will be "should only be 10 minutes to fix, bobby", and other times it will be "have you any idea how long you'll be there so I know whether to try to divert stuff via Ely?".

Yeah, we do that here in NSW, although a lot of the answers on both ends amounts to "uhh I have no idea" especially when the ops and defects controllers get involved and start to go over us and leave the box in the dark.

Would it be possible for trains to give a courtesy call that they are underway even if they have the right of way (at an auto signal, for example)? Trains that have failed at Didcot P1 don't call ready, they just take off down to the next signal which is invariably at stop with a block applied, and I can't tell because it's all one track circuit.

" said:

" said:

" said:

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

I don't think so, though sometimes it will be "should only be 10 minutes to fix, bobby", and other times it will be "have you any idea how long you'll be there so I know whether to try to divert stuff via Ely?".

Yeah, we do that here in NSW, although a lot of the answers on both ends amounts to "uhh I have no idea" especially when the ops and defects controllers get involved and start to go over us and leave the box in the dark.

Would it be possible for trains to give a courtesy call that they are underway even if they have the right of way (at an auto signal, for example)? Trains that have failed at Didcot P1 don't call ready, they just take off down to the next signal which is invariably at stop with a block applied, and I can't tell because it's all one track circuit.

Depends on the contents of the UK Rule Book. I know our Rule Book in New Zealand requires trains to contact Train Control once detained or delayed, and must not move without contacting Train Control again and getting authority to move...

" said:

" said:

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

I don't think so, though sometimes it will be "should only be 10 minutes to fix, bobby", and other times it will be "have you any idea how long you'll be there so I know whether to try to divert stuff via Ely?".

Yeah, we do that here in NSW, although a lot of the answers on both ends amounts to "uhh I have no idea" especially when the ops and defects controllers get involved and start to go over us and leave the box in the dark.

Would it be possible for trains to give a courtesy call that they are underway even if they have the right of way (at an auto signal, for example)? Trains that have failed at Didcot P1 don't call ready, they just take off down to the next signal which is invariably at stop with a block applied, and I can't tell because it's all one track circuit.

" said:

" said:

" said:

Is it a UK network rule that the train crew need to give that estimate? That would explain to me why it's there.

I don't think so, though sometimes it will be "should only be 10 minutes to fix, bobby", and other times it will be "have you any idea how long you'll be there so I know whether to try to divert stuff via Ely?".

Yeah, we do that here in NSW, although a lot of the answers on both ends amounts to "uhh I have no idea" especially when the ops and defects controllers get involved and start to go over us and leave the box in the dark.

Would it be possible for trains to give a courtesy call that they are underway even if they have the right of way (at an auto signal, for example)? Trains that have failed at Didcot P1 don't call ready, they just take off down to the next signal which is invariably at stop with a block applied, and I can't tell because it's all one track circuit.

It's just occurred to me - I imagine this is a problem because the failure then sits at the next signal for a couple of minutes before coming on the phone? In real life, the failure would indeed just tootle off to the signal when ready but the driver would be on the phone the moment he arrived (and probably in a hurry by that time, as PNB or end of shift approaches).

A different matter, of course, if the driver had been in touch and declared the train a failure; in that case the driver is required to give an assurance that the train will not be moved until assistance has arrived. (The message would also include location information and an assurance that detonator protection has been provided, in readiness for the assisting loco.) Funnily, I have an idea that when assistance arrives the failed train may then move without further authority. (The instructions to the assisting engine will include disposal of the failure and signalmen will be required to make the line safe for the disposal movement before giving permission for the assistance to enter the section. So if the failure is to be taken forward the assisting driver will be told the stop signal to which he may consider the line will be clear, and that the line is clear to the signal only. If the failure is to be taken back to a location in rear, all necessary points must be set either into a siding or on to the right line, or the line clear to the agreed limit of the movement, before the assistance is allowed to enter the section. If it's to be a bang-road move and there are catch points or unworked trailing points (do the latter still exist anywhere, I wonder?) the assisting driver will be specifically warned of them and instructed to ensure they are set for the move before pasing over them.)

Things may have changed since my day, but I suspect the same general principles apply although train radio must make things a lot simpler.

In preserved AB (/ETT/AL) land, the signals may be returned to danger and the clearing point fouled if a train has failed in section - the idea being that you're potentially tying up a layout waiting for a train that may never arrive! The clearing point must be restored before either a) the train is permitted to move forwards again under its own power, or b) the assisting engine is sent in to rescue the train, hence why the assisting engine can then move the train forwards without further authority. I'd have thought the idea behind the assisting engine being able to move the train without asking is that communications at the failure site may be difficult or nonexistent - if a train fails within a tunnel, or there's no mobile phone/cab radio signal for miles, you don't really want to delay things even further by having to walk until you find some suitable communication method, and then walk all the way back again!

Danny252 said:

In preserved AB (/ETT/AL) land, the signals may be returned to danger and the clearing point fouled if a train has failed in section - the idea being that you're potentially tying up a layout waiting for a train that may never arrive! The clearing point must be restored before either a) the train is permitted to move forwards again under its own power, or b) the assisting engine is sent in to rescue the train, hence why the assisting engine can then move the train forwards without further authority. I'd have thought the idea behind the assisting engine being able to move the train without asking is that communications at the failure site may be difficult or nonexistent - if a train fails within a tunnel, or there's no mobile phone/cab radio signal for miles, you don't really want to delay things even further by having to walk until you find some suitable communication method, and then walk all the way back again!

Moreover - and talking about the same Land Of Preservation - the authority to enter the occupied section is the authority to remove the train to whichever end of the section is required, so no separate permission I'needed. One key concept is that only one train can be moving at once, so if the failed train repairs itself after the assisting loco has entered the section, the driver of the original train gets told that, never mind fixing things, he's being rescued anyway!

" said:

A different matter, of course, if the driver had been in touch and declared the train a failure; in that case the driver is required to give an assurance that the train will not be moved until assistance has arrived. (The message would also include location information and an assurance that detonator protection has been provided, in readiness for the assisting loco.) Funnily, I have an idea that when assistance arrives the failed train may then move without further authority. (The instructions to the assisting engine will include disposal of the failure and signalmen will be required to make the line safe for the disposal movement before giving permission for the assistance to enter the section. So if the failure is to be taken forward the assisting driver will be told the stop signal to which he may consider the line will be clear, and that the line is clear to the signal only. If the failure is to be taken back to a location in rear, all necessary points must be set either into a siding or on to the right line, or the line clear to the agreed limit of the movement, before the assistance is allowed to enter the section. If it's to be a bang-road move and there are catch points or unworked trailing points (do the latter still exist anywhere, I wonder?) the assisting driver will be specifically warned of them and instructed to ensure they are set for the move before pasing over them.)

Things may have changed since my day, but I suspect the same general principles apply although train radio must make things a lot simpler.

In preserved AB (/ETT/AL) land, the signals may be returned to danger and the clearing point fouled if a train has failed in section - the idea being that you're potentially tying up a layout waiting for a train that may never arrive! The clearing point must be restored before either a) the train is permitted to move forwards again under its own power, or b) the assisting engine is sent in to rescue the train, hence why the assisting engine can then move the train forwards without further authority. I'd have thought the idea behind the assisting engine being able to move the train without asking is that communications at the failure site may be difficult or nonexistent - if a train fails within a tunnel, or there's no mobile phone/cab radio signal for miles, you don't really want to delay things even further by having to walk until you find some suitable communication method, and then walk all the way back again!

Clearing points, assisting locos, failures, I don't recall previous discussions about this, but obviously this is how the real world works.

They're not too difficult to understand and make absolute sense. The question is whether to include them in some timetable or hide them, as seems to be the case now, under an umbrella of simplification. As I see it, assisting locos can presently be handled easily in just the same way as runaround locos provided the TT documentation makes it all clear. Clearing points and failures can be dealt with when the SimSig player puts on the Hat of God and physically removes trains from the layout after instructions by the response crew (good idea?).

This would be a good idea for a special, somewhat advanced TT that advanced users can enjoy.

:huh: Here we go again! It is a panel simulation, not a GAME! Will it never end?

A signaller's job is to signal trains. Other than advice on delays, the signaller is not interest in what is supposedly happening in the background. That information and a new timetable is not required. The signaller controls a train according to its current timetable. He/she does not alter the timetable.

Barry

:huh: Here we go again! It is a panel simulation, not a GAME! Will it never end?

A signaller's job is to signal trains. Other than advice on delays, the signaller is not interest in what is supposedly happening in the background. That information and a new timetable is not required. The signaller controls a train according to its current timetable. He/she does not alter the timetable.

Barry

I think it's reasonable to take on a few 'Control' decisions, in the interest of keeping everything running smoothly. Strictly following the timetable and not adjusting it to work around a failure or severe delay isn't really a reflection of reality!

Thanks Keith for explaining clearing points to me in detail! I didn't realize they were only to do with Absolute Block signalling.

Steamer wrote:
Quote:

I think it's reasonable to take on a few 'Control' decisions, in the interest of keeping everything running smoothly. Strictly following the timetable and not adjusting it to work around a failure or severe delay isn't really a reflection of reality!

By that I infer you support my idea of extending my role as mere signaller to actually removing failed trains from the layout, though F2 Train List controls were not specifically mentioned? Obviously there are two ways to remove a failed train:

1) Build into SimSig an automatic way of removing failed trains, e.g., (a) the signaller gets a phone call from whichever gang takes possession to the effect that "Train ABCD has now been declared a total failure and is expected to be removed from the area by 10:15". This seems quite realistic to me and absolves the signaller from the requirement to do it via the Train List > Extreme Measures > Remove train, but requires extra coding. At around the estimated time, the train's activated TC disappears from the screen (and the player is not penalized).

2) Phone the signaller to say "Train ABCD has now been declared a total failure" and leave it at that, with the implicit understanding that the signaller will use his occult powers to remove it. Less realistic but no extra coding required. Furthermore, the player is liable to lose extra points for removing a train in this way.

I wonder which method other forum members prefer?

Thanks Keith for explaining clearing points to me in detail! I didn't realize they were only to do with Absolute Block signalling.

Steamer wrote:
Quote:

I think it's reasonable to take on a few 'Control' decisions, in the interest of keeping everything running smoothly. Strictly following the timetable and not adjusting it to work around a failure or severe delay isn't really a reflection of reality!

By that I infer you support my idea of extending my role as mere signaller to actually removing failed trains from the layout, though F2 Train List controls were not specifically mentioned?

1) Build into SimSig an automatic way of removing failed trains, e.g., (a) the signaller gets a phone call from whichever gang takes possession to the effect that "Train ABCD has now been declared a total failure and is expected to be removed from the area by 10:15". This seems quite realistic to me and absolves the signaller from the requirement to do it via the Train List > Extreme Measures > Remove train, but requires extra coding. At around the estimated time, the train's activated TC disappears from the screen (and the player is not penalized).

I wonder which method other forum members prefer?