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| New York Subway Track Book 15/03/2015 at 09:04 #70035 | |
uboat
219 posts |
http://nyctrackbook.com/ a book of track plans for those interested. not sure you can make them into sims though? Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Peter Bennet, ozrail |
| New York Subway Track Book 16/03/2015 at 12:48 #70050 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:http://nyctrackbook.com/No No No No No!!!!! NO! Do NOT buy that book. Almost all the information contained within it is in the public domain* and I have something much...MUCH better (although a wee bit out of date). The book is mostly a track diagram, not a signaling diagram. Compare what the very expensive book offers.. http://nyctrackbook.com/printed.html With THIS. The person who writes the book is basically taking public information, packaging it in a non-digital form and then selling it back for an exorbitant price. This isn't 1950...we have Wiki's now. What I can provide still lacks all the auto signals, but it will get you much closer to creating a simulation then the book ever will. *Because the NYCTA is a governmental agency you should be able to request a copy via due to Freedom of Information laws, at the very least. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HeadController |
| New York Subway Track Book 16/03/2015 at 13:06 #70051 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
My attempt to get information from TfL made the pages of the Evening Standard . Somewhere on the internet are links to the IoC's decision in my favour and the subsequent Tribunal decision against me. Funnily, during the hearing the TfL witnesses reveiled enough about the workings to make me realise the question was irrellevant: I learned more by listening to them than the information requested would have given me! Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HeadController |
| New York Subway Track Book 16/03/2015 at 13:32 #70052 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
Thanks to the .pdf revolution it has become much easier for the odd employee to slip me a copy or two of various internal documents. The exception is the Long Island Rail Road, which has one of the stronger unions around and has kept almost all of its documentation on paper, requiring people to sign out and be responsible for their copies. Fiefdoms can be another problem. One of my friends works for Metro North and he needed the original plans for Grant Central Terminal to give to a track geometry firm that was contracted to 3D laser scan all the tunnels. For years the plans (and a digital copy made of the plans) had been strictly guarded by one guy in one office, ostensibly on "security" grounds, but in truth it was to make that person "indispensable", if you know what I mean. Anyway, when my friend went looking for the plans the person who had been hoarding them had either died or retired. My friend was able to see the physical originals, which are amazing historic artifacts, but are of course unable to be turned over to a contractor for everyday use. However a search of the former employee's files and work area eventually recovered a CD with the high res digital scans. The first thing my friend did was e-mail copies of the scans to everyone at work with a need to know before he could be told otherwise. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 16/03/2015 at 15:04 #70054 | |
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Southernrover
46 posts |
" said:http://nyctrackbook.com/Large parts of this book are reproduced free at http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_Track_Maps Rick Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 17/03/2015 at 00:58 #70074 | |
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slatteryc
254 posts |
I have that book . It makes an interesting topic very boring ( and I have lots of track maps ! )
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| New York Subway Track Book 22/03/2015 at 08:50 #70174 | |
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HeadController
33 posts |
" said:" said:http://nyctrackbook.com/No No No No No!!!!! NO! I bought the book when it first came out but have never bought another copy. Thanks for that link Mike it is far better and makes that book look like a kiddies attempt. Now what would be nice is for some instructions on those panels, how they operated. Over here in the UK there are a number of official publications, yellow perils etc. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 22/03/2015 at 22:24 #70198 | |
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uboat
219 posts |
P.14 or Midtown Manhattan is unavailable when you click the printed maps link.
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| New York Subway Track Book 23/03/2015 at 13:31 #70204 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:The panels are all fairly similar in operation. For the US&S and GRS models you can probably find documentation here: http://www.rrsignalpix.com/documents.php One note. Some of the interlockings on the IRT are listed as being controlled from the Rail Control Center with an alternate signaling location being listed. The RCC is a VDU based signaling center that mostly runs via ARS. The alternate signaling locations are the original mostly 1950's vintage "Master Towers" using big GRS or US&S panels. When the NYCTA wanted to centralize its operations it hooked the RCC into the NX interface. There was no re-signaling involved. Moreover, I've been told that the towers are still staffed and are activated any time operations need to deviate from the ARS script because the computer can't keep up. The NYCTA is as busy as it ever was and there are a lot of moving pieces that require tactical intervention that only tower operators can provide. Here is a video I took of the Auxiliary Panel for Bowling Green interlocking. Auxiliary panels are different than maintainers panels in that they are designed to be worked as towers, just on an as-needed basis. Bowling Green interlocking is normally worked by the RCC, but can also be controlled from Nevins St master tower OR from the local Auxiliary panel. The Panel is a unit lever type US&S Style C. UR panels (Union Route) are of the NX variety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RStJ621auaU Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HeadController |
| New York Subway Track Book 23/03/2015 at 18:19 #70214 | |
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HeadController
33 posts |
Mike, Once again many thanks for the link some interesting stuff there. Also the youtube showing Bowling Green aux panel. Where you mention RCC and no resignalling, it's a bit like a re-control only. With regard to my question about operation of panels, sorry I did not make myself clear I meant did the subway issue instructions to their staff. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 23/03/2015 at 18:35 #70215 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:Mike,I can ask my friend who is now a tower operator, but aside from the general book of tower oeprator's rules, working the specific machines is done through on the job training. My friend actually did a tour that consisted of going to many different types of towers to learn how they worked. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HeadController |
| New York Subway Track Book 24/03/2015 at 11:58 #70227 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
Just learned that in conjunction with the 7 Line expansion project the 1956 vintage US&S UR panel at Times Square was taken out of service two weekends ago. Times Square Master Tower has remote control of the line between TSQ and the Hunter's Point portal. Dispatchers will now temporarily control the terminal interlocking from a mantainer's panel in the new TSQ relay room before moving to the 34th St relay room when the extension is opened in the fall. Eventually the line is scheduled to receive a CTBC upgrade with at least part time control being handled by the PCC.
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| New York Subway Track Book 24/03/2015 at 16:04 #70228 | |
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HeadController
33 posts |
Mike, Thanks as far as I know on the job training was the thing here, BR produced books etc about operation of panels and the like how good they were I don't really know. In later years LU have produced some but not in any great detail. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 24/03/2015 at 16:56 #70229 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:Mike,If unions are strong such documentation doesn't get made so that it is harder to hire replacement workers. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 24/03/2015 at 19:15 #70233 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
What a load of crap.
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| New York Subway Track Book 25/03/2015 at 06:56 #70242 | |
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HeadController
33 posts |
" said:What a load of crap. I take it you are talking about the book? Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 25/03/2015 at 07:09 #70243 | |
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Ron_J
331 posts |
No, I was talking about this piece of arrant nonsense: Quote: If unions are strong such documentation doesn't get made so that it is harder to hire replacement workers. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| New York Subway Track Book 25/03/2015 at 09:36 #70245 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:No, I was talking about this piece of arrant nonsense: Agreed. Mike seems to have a terrible bee in his bonnet about trades unions. He never seems to read when I write about my experience here in the UK, where the unions were indeed very strong in the railway industry. And where both sides, for the most part, worked their socks off for the benefit of the industry. It is true that the unions exist for their members' benefit; why have them if they don't work for their members? And there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that, in doing so, they have improved the railway hugely not just for their members but also for the countless people who use it. It is true that, occasionally, they oppose - and even take action against - management proposals that would disadvantage their members; as I say, that is what they exist for. Almost never can I remember a staff side opposing a sensible idea for the sake of it, although they've often raised important objections that management hadn't thought of (and that improved the scheme no end when incorporated). Sometimes, management has needed union objections to see off a scheme being imposed on them from higher up that they, tasked with making the railway operate properly, knew would be a disaster. It is true that union reps defend staff charged with disciplinary offences. And that they will get their members off on a technicality if they can. That, too, is their job. Does Mike really believe that a person's guilt should be considered proved on the basis of the opinion of one person out to get somebody, without the need for proper formulation of a charge and testing of the evidence? I certainly don't! If management do their job right, there are no technicalities a union rep can use (and if they can't get even those basics right they deserve to lose the case). An accused person is entitled, in my view, to test the evidence against them, to present evidence in their defence and to present evidence in mitigation; I think they're also entitled to a representative to do that on their behalf. I never had a problem with the union reps advocating at disciplinaries. As the personnel clerk I made damned sure there were no technicalities (and I think the union reps came to know they needn't look for them in our area). And, even when it was a Clause 9 and summary dismissal (my heart sank when I had to deal with those), they were always perfect gentlemen. As for preventing the making of documentation to hamper the training of new workers, Mike is indeed talking crap (I was sorely tempted to use a stronger word). My father's papers included the 'Instructions to Signalmen' for the opening of West Hampstead Powerbox, with a complete explanation of eNtrance-eXit routesetting and very full documentation of the train describer equipment. Its main audience wasn't 'replacement workers' newly-recruited to the industry; it was the old boys who'd worked mechanical frames and absolute block signalling all their lives and now, for their last couple of years before retirement, had to cope with this completely alien way of doing the job. It's written in typical 1960s/'70s British Rail Rule-Book-Speak, but apart from that it's perfectly comprehensible and no-one on here would have the slightest difficulty with it. But, frankly, learning those basics would be a trivial task compared with discovering the little peculiarities that every job has and getting a feel for how trains move so regulating can be done effectively, particularly as many of the track layouts would be unfamiliar too (with the old double-crossover fast-slow junctions replaced by ladders in different locations). The book would have no role at all in that. Likewise in training new signalmen. Learning the rules & regs is the major task, the mechanics of working a signalbox trivial by comparison and the peculiarities of a particular signalbox the next major task. Nowadays the signalling schools have simulators so signalmen not only learn R&R and the working of particular signalling systems (mechanical and/or NX) but so they can have out-of-course and emergency situations thrown at them in a non-live environment. Again a manual for the working of a particular control interface would be pretty much superfluous - when sent to their eventual place of work they will have to learn the details of the interlocking and of the traffic in any case, any necessary learning of the interface will take place automatically as part of that process. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 25/03/2015 at 13:14 #70247 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
My comment was simply a statement of what organized labour in the New York City area does to benefit its workers. It's been confirmed to me by multiple employees. Like everything there are pros and cons, but either way I'm going to point out the practices. Both the NYCTA and the Long Island Rail Road have an astonishing lack of automation, especially in the area of signaling. Both systems are packed with manned interlocking towers, relay interlocking logic and old school operating practices like train orders and manual block (the LIRR is indeed the last railroad in the country to use both train orders and manual block). Like I said before the NYCTA built a nice shiny control center...but still keeps the towers in RCC territory staffed because the union made a stink that doing so was essential in case of "terrorism" (the RCC also has problems operating under stress) . Whatever, its good from my point of view because I like old signaling, but on the other hand the workers are really paranoid about photography because they are sitting around not doing much. Also both management and labour are notoriously tight lipped when it comes to documentation. The former doesn't like getting dinged for mismanagement or graft, the latter is looking to preserve the 1950's operating practices. By making operations as opaque as possible it makes it very hard for those practices to be changed or scrutinized. The region actually provides its own case study with Metro North and the LIRR. Metro North came into being in 1983 when partly nationalized Conrail was ordered to stop operating commuter rail services under contract because it was seen by conservatives as a backdoor subsidy to northeast liberals. When the new Metro North demanded a revised labour agreement all the old Conrail workers stayed with Conrail and MNRR hired a lot of people off the street. With a less organized labour force MNRR was able to embark on one of the most aggressive signaling efficiency strategies on a North American commuter system. They implemented a brand new role book, closed all the towers and ripped out virtually all the wayside signals. The place is a signaling wasteland, but they did drastically reduce operating costs. The LIRR on the other hand never had its power structure disrupted and still operates under a version of the Pennsylvania railroad rulebook. I will say that the LIRR did have the last laugh because after 30 years, Metro North's 1983 workforce started to retire en masse which has resulted in a string of safety problems. One last story. When the LIRR was contemplating the elimination of some significant number of conductor positions, somehow 750 volt third rail current was introduced into a signaling cable at HALL interlocking (think Clapham Junction) which started a fire and snarled commuter traffic for a week. The announced staffing cuts were soon reversed. Similar cuts at Metro North were also rolled back after a critical drawbridge caught fire at 4pm on a weekday. :whistle: I don't live in NYC so I don't have any reason to be angry. I'm just pointing out what goes on there. Log in to reply |
| New York Subway Track Book 25/03/2015 at 19:55 #70255 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:The equivalent for Euston PSB, which also matches your description, is available here on my web site. Log in to reply |