Passenger trains over Goods Loops - allowable or not?

In real life control would have to authorise it.

I'm not near any diagrams but I have a feeling the exit points from Sutton bridge loop don't have an FPL so passenger use would be an absolute no unless the points where clipped and scotched.

6M55 (0700 Portbury Coal Terminal to Rugeley B Power Station) is timetabled to sit in Sutton Bridge Jn UGL from 1042 to 1150, before avoiding the station and going round the triangle from English Bridge Jn to Abbey Foregate Jn and joining the Wellington line.

Wrongly routed it at Sutton Bridge and sent it on Up Main rather than onto the Up Goods Loop.

Had also set up route onto Wellington line and then locked up whole station as 6M55 refused to move off early (waiting for booked time and/or train crew relief?).

Managed to cancel onward route (with adverse aspect warnings, of course!).

This freed up Shrewsbury station but left me with class 1 passenger trains on block half way back to Hereford stuck behind it!

Have been routing these stuck class 1 passenger trains via the UGL to get past 6M55 - bit like overtaking on the inside lane of a motorway - ie possible but naughty!

Shrewsbury Sim let me do this - albeit with a warning of Passenger train routed via a Goods Line each time!

Got me out of a fix rather than last resort of removing 6M55 or sweating it out and leaving massive delays for rest of the day...

Simple question: Would I be allowed to use Sutton Bridge Jn Up Goods Loop for passenger trains in real life?

Could you please explain what the term FPL means?

" said:

Could you please explain what the term FPL means?

Facing Point Lock.

Sutton Bridge Jn is a mechanical box, with most of the points (the one at the entrance to the UGL definitely being an exception) controlled directly by rodding from the lever in the box. Pulling the lever over does not guarantee that the point is all the way over and safe for trains to pass- small items of debris can hold the blade open slightly, while flexibility in the rodding (and a good pull from the signalman!) allows the point lever to move all the way over in the box. This is obviously a derailment risk, so on passenger lines a Facing Point Lock is provided. This consists of a 'tongue' of metal that slides into one of two gaps in a stretcher bar* (one for Normal, one for Reverse). If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me), the FPL lever in the box won't go all the way over in the box, alerting the signaller to the problem. The interlocking won't allow the signal to clear without the FPL engaged.

As Karl says, if an FPL is not provided, one blade must be clamped to the appropriate rail, and a scotch (posh word for a lump of wood!) stuck between the blade and rail on the other side.

Motor worked points detect themselves by a set of rods between the point blades and the box containing the motor.

In the box, point levers are painted black, FPLs blue and motor-worked points have a blue top half and black bottom half.

*A stretcher bar is a piece of metal between the two moving rails in the point.


Image from RMweb:

Out of interest, why have these as a requirement for passenger traffic but not freight? Surely it's just as dangerous and catastrophic to have a freight train derail? Or am I missing something :blink:

If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me)

Motor worked points detect themselves by a set of rods between the point blades and the box containing the motor.

If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me)

" said:

Out of interest, why have these as a requirement for passenger traffic but not freight? Surely it's just as dangerous and catastrophic to have a freight train derail? Or am I missing something :blink:

In short, lumps of coal complain less about being thrown off a train than people do!

(I suspect it's related to lobbying/complaints by companies in the 19th century, who complained about just about every safety measure imposed on them)

" said:

If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me)

I'd love to see any exposed, outdoor mechanical system that could manage an accuracy of 25 microns! I believe the requirement for detection is/was something like 1/16th of an inch, whilst FPLs seem to be slightly less stringent than that (given how often I've had FPLs go in whilst the detection was still foul).

Quote:

Motor worked points detect themselves by a set of rods between the point blades and the box containing the motor.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Motor worked points have FPLs, and manual points (can) have detection.

I'd love to see any exposed, outdoor mechanical system that could manage an accuracy of 25 microns! I believe the requirement for detection is/was something like 1/16th of an inch, whilst FPLs seem to be slightly less stringent than that (given how often I've had FPLs go in whilst the detection was still foul).

" said:

If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me)

I'd love to see any exposed, outdoor mechanical system that could manage an accuracy of 25 microns! I believe the requirement for detection is/was something like 1/16th of an inch, whilst FPLs seem to be slightly less stringent than that (given how often I've had FPLs go in whilst the detection was still foul).

Quote:

Motor worked points detect themselves by a set of rods between the point blades and the box containing the motor.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Motor worked points have FPLs, and manual points (can) have detection.

I appreciate that...still reckon a village would complain about being half destroyed by a freight train derailing same as if it was a passenger train though (Heaven forbid)

Steamer.

Clamplock Points lock the blade which a motorised Clamp on both blades. the motor removes the clamp, then moves the blades, then replaces the clamp. there is no FPL so these might be the ones you're thinking of as they're probably one of the most common.

" said:

Out of interest, why have these as a requirement for passenger traffic but not freight? Surely it's just as dangerous and catastrophic to have a freight train derail? Or am I missing something :blink:

In short, lumps of coal complain less about being thrown off a train than people do!

(I suspect it's related to lobbying/complaints by companies in the 19th century, who complained about just about every safety measure imposed on them)

" said:

If the points are not in the correct position (I think the error margin is one thousandth of an inch, but don't quote me)

I'd love to see any exposed, outdoor mechanical system that could manage an accuracy of 25 microns! I believe the requirement for detection is/was something like 1/16th of an inch, whilst FPLs seem to be slightly less stringent than that (given how often I've had FPLs go in whilst the detection was still foul).

Quote:

Motor worked points detect themselves by a set of rods between the point blades and the box containing the motor.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Motor worked points have FPLs, and manual points (can) have detection.

" said:

Steamer.

Clamplock Points lock the blade which a motorised Clamp on both blades. the motor removes the clamp, then moves the blades, then replaces the clamp. there is no FPL so these might be the ones you're thinking of as they're probably one of the most common.

Thanks.

Can I check- is this the type of point you mean? It's confused me slightly as the clamp appears to be fully built in to the point, as opposed to being a separate item.