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| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 02:28 #77086 | |
Aaron86
25 posts |
Hi, I'm an italian train driver, and I am studying UK railway signalling for curiosity. I admit that the big of my experience is related to Train Simulator (though I know is not a real simulator), but I was woundering how do english train drivers manage with speed limits, as I noticed often these are indicated only with a small sign on the track side at the point where it begins, and only on major restrictions there is an advice signal (Morphet boards, there would be much to say about Morphet..). In Italy we have 3 advice signs before a permanent speed restriction, and also the speed restriction sign is always placed in advance of the starting point (about 1km before) to allow trains to slow down in time. In case of diverting lines, the speed reduction is given with the colour light signals. So my doubt was how do english train drivers cope with speed limits, since they must be already at speed when they pass the speed limit sign: do they have to memorize all lines they work on? Do they have a diagram or scheme of the line they are travelling? Thanks to all will help me to clear my doubts. Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 02:52 #77087 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Hi. Have a look at this page (and others on the website) as it's great for quick explanations of the various signs. Regarding advance warning of a speed limit, symbol 13.49 gives the most common warning: a yellow triangle with the speed limit in black. This is placed at enough distance to give a train braking at the sign enough time to slow to the posted speed limit, so the placement distance varies according to speed drop. If there is only a slight drop in speed then there is no warning board - for example, 50mph down to 45mph. I don't recall the threshold for needing/not needing a sign though. Drivers are expected to know the route though, and most train companies provide diagrams for this purpose. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 08:48 #77088 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:Hi. Have a look at this page (and others on the website) as it's great for quick explanations of the various signs. Regarding advance warning of a speed limit, symbol 13.49 gives the most common warning: a yellow triangle with the speed limit in black. This is placed at enough distance to give a train braking at the sign enough time to slow to the posted speed limit, so the placement distance varies according to speed drop. These present day practices developed from a requirement, in steam days, that drivers would learn and memorise the lines so thoroughly that they would be able to obey speed restrictions without any signs at all. There were a few exceptions but it was not until after nationalisation (1948) that there was universal signing of speed restrictions. Even then the only sign was at the start of the restriction, with drivers expected to reduce speed without advice. Morpeth Boards arrived only in 1971 and universal provision of advance warning didn't start until the 1990s. Very full information here http://www.railsigns.uk/sect13page1/sect13page1.html Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 11:42 #77095 | |
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JM43
4 posts |
Hi Aaron, I was a guard on the (British) railway for around 15 years, until the year 2000, when i took voluntry redundancy. With some of the drivers i used to work with, it never ceased to amaze me at their knowege of the route they were working over. Especially at this time of year, with the fallen leaves making rails slippery and similar in the winter with the frost. I can remember one instance, working a parcels train, from Swindon, to London Paddington. The driver i was with used to breed budgies and was EXTREMELY fed up with the supervisor at Swindon depot, because he wouldn't let him use the photocopier to copy some of his records as to which budgies he had bred with others... It was THICK with fog and 'Ray', this driver was ranting at me, telling me his thoughts on the supervisor as we went to London with a 90mph (what's that, around 150kmh) parcels train. Ray would briefly pause to look up at EXACTLY the moment he knew he could see his next signal, then continue 'venting' at me! Considering the speed of the train, the weather conditions and Ray's irate state of mind, there was NEVER a time when he didn't know EXACTLY where he was! The short answers to your questions are... Yes, they do have to memorise the route and sign their name on a 'route card', to certify this has been done. (The same applies to the different types of trains they are qualified to drive). Yes, there is a route diagram that they are issued with and MUST be kept up to date, called a 'Sectional Appendix'. Although it's more to do with any special instructions there may be with any yards or sidings they may visit. Obviously, fifteen years have passed, since i used to work on the railway and it wouldn't surprise me if it was all a 'paperless office' now! That's certainly the way it was, if not now? Hope this helps, loads of happy memories of that job! Ciao for now, John. Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 15:13 #77101 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
There's an old posting about Route Knowledge here (Google Groups). Scroll down to the second posting on 10/06/2002 (there's a few followups as well, before the thread drifts). Unfortunately the link to Ross's posting has rotted; I'll see if I can find it. Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 16:32 #77102 | |
Steamer
3984 posts 
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" said:I've read elsewhere that in some countries drivers carry a diagram of the route with them at all times and refer to it while driving. Is this the case in Italy? As others have said, UK drivers are required to learn a route thoroughly, and are tested on locations of speed limits (amongst many other things) before being certified to drive the route on their own. The slang term for being qualified to drive a particular route is 'sign the road'. This also means that drivers have to drive each route they 'sign' at least once every few months (the exact time depends on which company they work for) to ensure they remember it. You might when playing SimSig that trains may use routes early in the morning and late in the evening that they don't use during the day. They do this to ensure that drivers work over diversionary routes often enough to retain their knowledge of them, so that if the main route is blocked (either for engineering works or an incident), drivers can take the alternative route without a problem. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 16:46 #77103 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:They do this to ensure that drivers work over diversionary routes often enough to retain their knowledge of them, so that if the main route is blocked (either for engineering works or an incident), drivers can take the alternative route without a problem.Assuming that the Guard, ticket inspector and the dolly with the trolley also sign the road... Kev Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 20/10/2015 at 18:08 #77107 | |
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arabianights
138 posts |
Aaron do I understand from this then that in Italy train drivers don't need to know the route and in theory any Italian train driver can drive any train anywhere? I have a great one liner here but it wouldn't translate well 
Last edited: 20/10/2015 at 18:09 by arabianights Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 21/10/2015 at 10:34 #77119 | |
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Jan
906 posts
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I can't speak for Italy, but German practice (which seems to have influenced a number of countries in Europe, possibly including Italy) is this one: Apart from the timings, the driver's timetable also includes the location of all speed limits, stations/halts/etc. and all signals [1]. See this link for a printed example and this one for the more modern electronic version. In addition, the route mileages are signposted for drivers, usually every 200 m (example), so there should be no confusion where exactly on a route you are. So yes, in German operating practice, route knowledge doesn't have quite the same value as it has in Britain, nevertheless, drivers are normally required to have route knowledge over here as well. On some routes, driving without route knowledge is prohibited flat out and in all other cases, it is only permitted in emergencies, e.g. if the original route became blocked by some accident and there was no pilot available to conduct the train over the diversion route. Obviously the driver will need to be issued a new timetable, and if he's driving without route knowledge, the maximum speed will be limited to 100 kph. Having said that, there are the occasional rumours going around that some of the smaller freight operating companies perhaps aren't taking the matter of route knowledge quite as seriously as they ought to. [1] If I remember correctly, the position of all signals was only added within the last two decades after some accidents, especially the one at Brühl. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 21/10/2015 at 11:02 #77120 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:Having said that, there are the occasional rumours going around that some of the smaller freight operating companies perhaps aren't taking the matter of route knowledge quite as seriously as they ought to. That's hardly unique to Germany! (Though I believe this issue has been resolved now). Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 21/10/2015 at 13:29 #77124 | |
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Jan
906 posts
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Oh right, now you're mentioning it, I remember reading that accident report... One other difference is speed signalling vs. route signalling. With route signalling, the driver needs to know what speeds to expect when being signalled along a particular route, e.g. at signal XYZ, junction indicator position 1 means a crossover with 40 mph, while position 2 means that after that, there's another set of points limited to 25 mph, at signal XZY position 1 means 30 mph, etc. With speed signalling as predominantly used on the continent, you know the general speed limit through the station and if you need to go any slower, it'll be simply indicated through the signals. There are still important bits of route knowledge, e.g. knowing which signal applies to you in areas with multiple running lines (see the recent crash in Mannheim when that goes wrong), knowing what routes you could expect based on the speed limits etc., but it's still probably a bit simpler than with route signalling. Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick. Log in to reply |
| How Speed Limits work in the UK? 21/10/2015 at 14:21 #77126 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said:" said:The United States also tends to employ the "no signage" method as it became a method to help ensure job security for the train crews. When Amtrak installed PSR signs on the Northeast Corridor in anticipation of needing replacement workers during a strike, they came to be referred to as "scab boards". Today Norfolk Southern does not use any APSR or PSR signs, CSX and Union Pacific use PSR signs only and BNSF is the only one I am aware of that uses both APSR and PSR signs. This example has both PSR and APSR signs for both passenger and Talgo trainsets.Hi. Have a look at this page (and others on the website) as it's great for quick explanations of the various signs. Regarding advance warning of a speed limit, symbol 13.49 gives the most common warning: a yellow triangle with the speed limit in black. This is placed at enough distance to give a train braking at the sign enough time to slow to the posted speed limit, so the placement distance varies according to speed drop. [img size=640]https://www.acm.jhu.edu//~sthurmovik/Railpics/14-08-18_CASCADE_CORRIDOR/BNSF_Seattle-Sub-021-nb-masts+tk1-Clear+PSR.jpg[/img] Even when signs are displayed there is a lot of information they don't capture, especially turnout speeds in route signaled territory. Here is an example of a Union Pacific speed chart. Quote: SI-02 MAXIMUM SPEED TABLEHere is an example of a BNSF speed chart. Quote: 1(A). Speed—Maximum Log in to reply |
