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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 04/12/2015 at 00:10 #78399 | |
BarryM
2158 posts |
I wonder if they would fit the tunnels? Article courtesy of Daily Mail. Click to read Barry Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 04/12/2015 at 01:56 #78400 | |
postal
5264 posts 
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" said:I wonder if they would fit the tunnels? Article courtesy of Daily Mail.Published on 21/12/2014. Good to see that they managed to re-hash the piece on 17/11/2015. As ever the Daily Mail shows its high standards of technical accuracy in the 2015 piece when it refers to the fact that "two-level trains have never caught on in the UK due to our narrow gauge rails and low tunnels". Presumably the same narrow gauge rails as are standard over most of the world and where many countries already manage to run double-deck trains. It's only personal prejudice, but even in the old days when we only had toilets at the end of the yard with squares of newspaper hanging on a nail there were some uses too good for the Daily Mail. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 04/12/2015 at 07:29 #78402 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD Suprised the article didnt reference these beauties? "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 04/12/2015 at 20:39 #78416 | |
outofsection
149 posts |
Yes, but did you ever travel in one? The experience was not one that you would desire to repeat - especially if you ever sat on the top deck on a hot humid day! Also, access to the top deck was something of a contortionist's act! Like the poll tax - a logical idea on paper, but the practical outworking left a lot to be desired. Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 08/12/2015 at 16:46 #78555 | |
Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
Up-down seating is probably the only way to do it on your loading gauge. http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/doubledecker.htm Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 08/12/2015 at 21:27 #78566 | |
northroad
872 posts |
" said:I wonder if they would fit the tunnels? Article courtesy of Daily Mail.Don't know why they use the Dutch double decker VIRM's as an alternative to the problem. The one I caught on Friday at about 13:10 from Dordrecht to Rotterdam was full to the gunnels with people standing in the doorways and that included upstairs as well. Not just the occasional problem over here either as I am sure some of our Dutch members will confirm especially during the rush hour where the overcrowding figures come from in this article. Get rid of the people who insist on putting their belongings on the seat next to the one they are sitting in I say. They seem to think it their god given right to do this without anyone questioning why they should ask for it to be moved. I love watching their faces when I ask them to sit next to them. I would say that we in the UK are not the only ones who suffer from overcrowding all be it to a different extent. Geoff. Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 08/12/2015 at 21:41 #78567 | |
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BarryM
2158 posts |
" said:" said:Geoff,I wonder if they would fit the tunnels? Article courtesy of Daily Mail.Don't know why they use the Dutch double decker VIRM's as an alternative to the problem. The one I caught on Friday at about 13:10 from Dordrecht to Rotterdam was full to the gunnels with people standing in the doorways and that included upstairs as well. Not just the occasional problem over here either as I am sure some of our Dutch members will confirm especially during the rush hour where the overcrowding figures come from in this article. Get rid of the people who insist on putting their belongings on the seat next to the one they are sitting in I say. They seem to think it their god given right to do this without anyone questioning why they should ask for it to be moved. I love watching their faces when I ask them to sit next to them. The same happens down here in Sydney, Aus. All trains are double deckers, packed to the gunnels and heaven help anybody that blocks a seat. Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 09/12/2015 at 10:32 #78576 | |
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Hugh
37 posts |
Do I remember rightly? Didn't the old Southern Region of British Rail have some double decker trains or something based on a 4sub unit that they trialled. They ran into a station with a higher and upper level I think. Possibly London Bridge.
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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 09/12/2015 at 10:54 #78577 | |
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broodje
184 posts |
" said:You're right, the double deckers are not enough to ease the overcrowding over here in the Netherlands. But you'll have to admit that 12 carriages of double deck trains can handle more people as 12 single deck carriages. I do wonder though about the length of these carriages, are British trains cars not also a bit shorter as on the mainland? and wouldn’t the stairs take up to much room then per carriage. In other words how much space would really be gained by double deck coaches? Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 09/12/2015 at 11:17 #78579 | |
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postal
5264 posts
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" said:Do I remember rightly? Didn't the old Southern Region of British Rail have some double decker trains or something based on a 4sub unit that they trialled. They ran into a station with a higher and upper level I think. Possibly London Bridge.Like the ones jc92 refers us to in his post earlier in the thread dated 04 Dec 2015 07:28? “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 09/12/2015 at 14:29 #78581 | |
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outofsection
149 posts |
According to Colin J Marsden's excellent book "DMU and EMU Recognition Guide" the Southern (Bulleid designed) double-deck units were indeed based on the 4-SUB design and carried the classification 4-DD. Only two 4-car sets were built (at Eastleigh) numbered 4001 & 4002 and first entered service in September & October 1949 respectively. The sets were later renumbered in November 1970 to 4901 & 4902 to free up the original numbers for the upcoming PEP sets. Each 4-car set could carry 552 sitting passengers and the B.T.C. claimed another 150 standing passengers could also be carried. When both sets were coupled together, up to 1404 passengers could be carried on one train in peak periods. The mind boggles as to what was that experience must have been like!! :yikes Both sets were allocated to Slade Green depot and only ran between Charing Cross and Dartford due to loading gauge restrictions as the sets were taller than normal 4-SUB sets. Passengers were less than enamoured with the travelling experience: with many complaining about the coaches being cramped with poor headroom - particularly on the upper deck along with poor ventilation and the length of time it took to board and alight from the upper deck in peak periods. One passenger described the travelling experience thus: "These trains were frustrating to travel on if you were late and had to hunt firstly for a non smoking compartment and also evade the Ladies Only carriages. It took ages for people to get on and off when the train was full, and if you happened to be upstairs in a smoking compartment, the ventilation was so poor that you came out kippered." In addition to the passive smoking hazard, travelling on the upper deck in hot weather proved to be a most insanitary affair - again due to poor ventilation on the upper decks. Both sets remained in operation until 1st October 1971. The sets comprised: Unit Numbers........DBMS......TS..........TS..........DBMS 4001 (later 4901) 13001 + 13501 + 13502 + 13002 4002 (later 4902) 13003 + 13503 + 13504 + 13004 Hope this is useful to someone. More info here:- http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/_oth/4_dd.aspx Last edited: 09/12/2015 at 14:37 by outofsection Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Peter Bennet |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 10/12/2015 at 07:53 #78608 | |
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Re620
17 posts |
" said:Comparing different countries where double decker have replaced single decker for a 4-car set gave me a rough factor of 1.5 in seats. (i.e. Switzerland length 100m, 260 vs. 378 seats). Standing is difficult to get reliable figures. Problems arise when used in suburban traffic, due to more people need to get out of the same amount of doors, so dwell times are getting longer. Still there is a clear advantage in capacity. This can also be seen by the fact more countries buy double deck stock. (i.e. TGV Duplex, DB TWINDEXX, Switzerland and Austria) Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 10/12/2015 at 09:24 #78610 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
In the end, of course, the main issue is that the UK loading gauge is significantly smaller than that on the mainland (something like 2ft/600mm lower I think, and narrower too though I'd not like to say by how much). That difference is sufficient to make all the difference when it comes to fitting in a second deck and probably makes it just about impossible here, even if the floor between the bogies were lowered to the minimum practicable. So the only answer, I suspect, is going to be maximum-length trains (probably mainly 12-car, and even providing for that will take quite a bit of £££ and maximum use of line capacity (which will require ruthless control by a central authority (and there's talk of more privatisation and competition??!!!) and huge investment in signalling systems, additional platform lines wherever practicable to allow quicker section clearance and occupation and perhaps automatic driving systems to reduce headways to the practicable minimum).
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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 10/12/2015 at 09:25 #78611 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
I rather suspect that if they could work out how to do double-deckers with the UKs rather tight loading gauge, the idiots at the Department of Roads would say that if a double-deck train can hold 1.5x the people in a normal train then all of the six-car trains can be reduced to 4-car double-deckers. Kev Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 10/12/2015 at 12:20 #78616 | |
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broodje
184 posts |
" said:To be fair, most of the western part of The Netherlands (where most stock is double deck) is suburban. Intercity stations generally lie between 10 and 30 minutes of travel time between them. The IC The Hague-Amsterdam (34 minutes) has 6(!) stops on it's route. Amsterdam-Rotterdam (45 minutes) also has 6 stops. Amsterdam-Utrecht, also 30 minutes has only 2 stops though ;). IC’s outside the western (randstad) are mostly single deck and between 4 and 12 cars in length. The double deck trains do have wider doors and bigger balconies as the British IC stock to compensate for the bigger amount of people. Of course, this does not favor the amount of seats, but the cattle (sorry people) can stand on both levels giving lots of capacity. . Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 11:04 #78643 | |
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jeffh16
40 posts |
with Basingstoke to Waterloo being assessed for double deck trains I imagine it's getting to a stage where it could become the most viable option. trains on this route are already at max length due to platforms at waterloo, and the cost and work involved to extend the platforms at waterloo would be massive and would likely end up with a highly inflexible layout. between waterloo and Basingstoke there are no tunnels, yes there are bridges, but when you look consider they have raised the majority of bridges between Paddington and Bristol for the electrification works there then it's not out of the question to also do it here.
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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 13:49 #78644 | |
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Re620
17 posts |
" said:
In Zurich the core lines has station intervals at approx. 3 min with a headway of 4 min in peak. Peak time trains are normally 12 cars in length, double decked. [br] " said: with Basingstoke to Waterloo being assessed for double deck trains I imagine it's getting to a stage where it could become the most viable option. trains on this route are already at max length due to platforms at waterloo, and the cost and work involved to extend the platforms at waterloo would be massive and would likely end up with a highly inflexible layout. between waterloo and Basingstoke there are no tunnels, yes there are bridges, but when you look consider they have raised the majority of bridges between Paddington and Bristol for the electrification works there then it's not out of the question to also do it here. Remodeling bridges is normally significantly cheaper than having to remodel a tunnel, due to the shorter length of track concerned. The most likely problem here is, that you have to order a sub-fleet/new type which will be restricted to that line. Ordering in small numbers hurts the price per unit and having a sub-fleet can drive up running costs. But at one point you run out of options and you have to make a decision to meet the demand. It would be nice to see more capacity for the commuters. Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 15:01 #78646 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
One major flaw with bi or split level cars in North America has been the general reduction of seating density when a carrier moves to the multi level design. Older single level stock would have 3+2 seating with room for 130-135 seated passengers. Bi-level equipment has uniformly implemented 2+2 seating and than added some longitudinal seating and bathrooms. The result is that the bi-level cars will only seat 140-155 people. I guess there can be two isles for standees, but multi-level cars are rarely the panacea they are made out to be.
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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 15:47 #78648 | |
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ledgero2
93 posts |
When i saw the topic name, i could help but hope we were discussing something more like this...
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| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 16:51 #78649 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:One major flaw with bi or split level cars in North America has been the general reduction of seating density when a carrier moves to the multi level design. Older single level stock would have 3+2 seating with room for 130-135 seated passengers. Bi-level equipment has uniformly implemented 2+2 seating and than added some longitudinal seating and bathrooms. The result is that the bi-level cars will only seat 140-155 people. I guess there can be two isles for standees, but multi-level cars are rarely the panacea they are made out to be.Don't think you'd have to worry about that here - it'd be solid 3+2 throughout, no first class, no bogs, no nothing. Just unadulterated swathes of sardine seating and cow pens. Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 17:38 #78653 | |
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Jersey_Mike
250 posts |
" said::blink: How can you even fit 3+2 on a single level train in the UK? I've been informed that the reason for 2+2 on out bi-levels is that they have to taper in by a few inches toward the top. Your cars are what, a foot narrower? I know Americans are, um, overweight, but the UK isn't know for its healthy eating habits either. Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 17:50 #78654 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
Dear me, you could fit 3+3 in those Bombardier bilevel coaches without any effort at all - and a surprising number of table seats, too (though perhaps that varies by operator). Those can hardly be called commuter stock... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interior_of_the_Rail_Runner.JPG Last edited: 11/12/2015 at 17:52 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 17:54 #78655 | |
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arabianights
138 posts |
" said:" said:You are correct, it isn't a pleasant experience at all what is more on those 3+2 trains (and other commuter trains in fact) the first class will be 2+2.:blink: How can you even fit 3+2 on a single level train in the UK? I've been informed that the reason for 2+2 on out bi-levels is that they have to taper in by a few inches toward the top. Your cars are what, a foot narrower? I know Americans are, um, overweight, but the UK isn't know for its healthy eating habits either. That said, the vast majority of obese people live away from London, an interesting and extremely noticeable phenomena seldom remarked upon (good piece on this by Rod Liddle in last week's spectator). Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 19:23 #78656 | |
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postal
5264 posts
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" said:" said:Until quite recently we even had 3+2 on the London Underground on the A60 stock used on the Metropolitan Line.:blink: How can you even fit 3+2 on a single level train in the UK? I've been informed that the reason for 2+2 on out bi-levels is that they have to taper in by a few inches toward the top. Your cars are what, a foot narrower? I know Americans are, um, overweight, but the UK isn't know for its healthy eating habits either. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply |
| Doubledecker Trains for British Railways 11/12/2015 at 19:46 #78657 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
" said:Dear me, you could fit 3+3 in those Bombardier bilevel coaches without any effort at all - and a surprising number of table seats, too (though perhaps that varies by operator). Those can hardly be called commuter stock...Wow look at all that real estate being wasted between seats. You could drive a chuffing tank down that aisle, too! (And there's terrifying amount of leg room - are you sure this is a commuter vehicle?) Last edited: 11/12/2015 at 19:48 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
