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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 17:39 #79289 | |
Andrew G
552 posts 
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There are a number of legacy exe simulations, some scrolly and some paged, which I suspect the community would like to see upgraded into loader/scrolly versions. Sheffield is a prime example of an interesting layout which some of us find hard to revisit having become accustomed to the look, feel and features of the loader versions. If I was a developer and had the choice of developing a new simulation or upgrading an existing one then I might be inclined to lean towards a new simulation and not just from a financial point of view - for example developing a new area might provide more interest and challenge. However, if the community had the appetite to pay for simulated areas, that were previously donationware, then developers might be more inclined to devote their valuable time to an upgrade. I appreciate this might well be a hot topic but views from the community might be of interest to the developers. Then again they might not. Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 17:58 #79290 | |
jc92
3701 posts |
+1 here. Id happily pay around £20ish for a loader sheffield. Still one of the top 5 for me but sadly outdated and could do with some modifications to some areas of the layout now more information is available.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 18:05 #79291 | |
John
884 posts |
+1 from me as well. Take my money devs! Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 18:16 #79292 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
Would certainly pay for a loader version of some older donationware sims if it means updates are more likely.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:02 #79295 | |
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Mikhail
17 posts |
+1 for payware.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:17 #79296 | |
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peterb
452 posts |
+1 for Sheffie but with Kurt AWOL I'm not sure how realistic the prospect is. Trent is another.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:19 #79297 | |
DaveHarries
1287 posts |
I am always happy to pay for new sims as and when they are released. Dave Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:32 #79299 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
There are many points that come to mind with regard to this topic. GeoffM recently explained the reason for the move to paid-for sims and I take that information into account as I make the comments below. I believe that having to pay for SimSig is limiting its potential. The paid-for sims reach very few people. People have complained that they can't use the sim they paid for after the initial burst of interest and they wouldn't buy another one. This causes disillusionment and people will drift away, as they constantly do, for many reasons which I won't go into here. Many of the younger people who you would want to foster an interest in the railways will not have the money to pay for sims. Derbybest put this more eloquently in a recent post. I had twelve connections to the free King's Cross simulation in last night's session. It is unlikely you would ever achieve that level of involvement with any of the paid-for sims. The sims adjacent to King's Cross are crying out for an update, such as Peterborough and Cambridge. NLL scrolly appeared, then disappeared. A number of scrolly versions were developed, such as Peterborough, Sheffield, London Bridge, but these were never finished or released, presumably because the standard is now that sims should be loader sims, and therefore they use a different technology. What worries me most, is that if the developers go ahead and produce a paid-for version of a formerly free sim, then the older free version is withdrawn. This has happened to Edinburgh. Some of us still have the older free version and would like to continue to use it. Naturally, people that don't have the old version ask for a copy of it in order to join a session. This puts everyone in a difficult position. It is my view, that any sim that is published should remain available permanently, so the last free version remains available for download. This is what other software sites do with regard to older versions. There are 30 paid-for sims. To buy one copy of each of them would set you back £474.50p, a serious amount of money for any hobby activity and well out of the range of a lot of people. Each time you pay for a sim, you are saying to yourself, well, I didn't really want the other ones. To me, you are not a true fan of SimSig. People with spare cash, will say, it's not a problem. There have already been a few replies on these lines. Obviously, everyone will have their own view and you will have your counter arguments. Do not try to attack me, belittle me or bully me, but state your points clearly and logically. People for and against should speak up, especially those who are not the "usual suspects". You might consider me as one of those. And, AndyG, you have raised an interesting topic, but your post virtually said "Whatever!" at the end, making me think that you weren't really interested in the replies. Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:32 #79300 | |
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slatteryc
266 posts |
I do not think that paid versions of existing sims mean that the donationware ones should be removed. You should have the choice of either. If people want to charge for the upgrade - fine, its their circus , but this is an opinion thread. I do think a couple of flagships should remain free to show off the quality, not just adjuncts to major paywares - I would never have bought a paid sim otherwise if KX or Trent hadn't been there, and Marylebone and WH would have passed me by Log in to reply The following user said thank you: lionel87 |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:39 #79301 | |
Peter Bennet
5419 posts |
Most of the .exe donation Sims are authored by people who are no longer/rarely around for whatever reasons. That does not particlarly rule out someone else taking it on as long as the data files are made available by them. I upgraded the 4 original McSims to Loader a while ago, then the data to upgrade them to current layouts became available so I did that (Edinburgh still to do). Then someone volunteered to do a 2015 timetable set so that's where we've got to. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:42 #79302 | |
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AndyG
1843 posts |
" said:And, AndyG, you have raised an interesting topic, but your post virtually said "Whatever!" at the end, making me think that you weren't really interested in the replies.Not me. 
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:45 #79303 | |
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Andrew G
552 posts
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" said:I quite agree that everybody in the community should be able to state their views without fear of being targeted or counter attacked - its the whole point of a forum. You've not interpreted my final comment correctly as I am genuinely interested in views from both sides of the fence to hopefully provide the developers with some insight into their customer base. All the comment meant was the developers might choose not to take any insight gleaned into account - this is of course their prerogative. Thanks to everybody who has contributed so far. Last edited: 28/12/2015 at 19:53 by Andrew G Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:46 #79304 | |
Dick
388 posts |
I think it is rather selfish to expect people to devote a lot of their time and effort into producing something for nothing. As far as I'm concerned, it is entirely the developer's choice whether they consider their efforts should be rewarded or not. As far as upgrading earlier sims is concerned, I think that the old version should still be available free to those that don't wish to purchase the newer version. Some will upgrade (as I have done with Edinburgh) others won't.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 19:52 #79305 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
My apologies to AndyG.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 20:00 #79306 | |
GeoffM
6380 posts |
Updating older exe sims depends on the developer. They can either do it, release the data for somebody else to do it, or not do it. That is their choice. I'd prefer to see all sims in Loader format - some of the older exes have bugs that have long been fixed, and SimSig core code has moved on so much since then that it's impossible to just re-compile the exe (well, we could as we keep old versions, but you wouldn't have the fixes so it's a bit pointless). When people stop buying SimSig then that's the end of it. Fortunately plenty do so I have a roof over my family's head but no Ferrari in the drive. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: simmybear |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 21:41 #79311 | |
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Forest Pines
525 posts |
" said:People have complained that they can't use the sim they paid for after the initial burst of interest and they wouldn't buy another one.Not very many do make those sort of complaints, do they? Not in public, at any rate. " said: I had twelve connections to the free King's Cross simulation in last night's session. It is unlikely you would ever achieve that level of involvement with any of the paid-for sims.Why does that matter, though, if people are happily buying and playing the sims on their own? I've been thinking back to what I've been playing myself lately. Currently it's Leeds, because it's new; before that I was in the middle of a West Hampstead game; in the weeks before that I was playing an LTS game. If I want something more relaxing I dip into Wolverhampton, Brighton or Shrewsbury. Most of those are, obviously, ones I've paid for. Money in the bank for the developers. I've always suspected that the vast majority of people who play SimSig don't post on here (although they do have to sign up of course) and don't join multiplayer games. In my anecdotal evidence, the one SimSig player I know who I first met through a "non-railway" origin - a database consultant I worked with for a while - has never posted on here and never plays multiplayer games (and he thinks I'm crazy for playing the sims I do; far too complex he says). " said: The sims adjacent to King's Cross are crying out for an update, such as Peterborough and Cambridge. NLL scrolly appeared, then disappeared. A number of scrolly versions were developed, such as Peterborough, Sheffield, London Bridge, but these were never finished or releasedI have a very vague memory that Clive stated, at some point in the past, that he planned to retain the paged format for Cambridge when it received updates. I might be misremembering, and it was some time ago of course, so that may be wrong. Am I right to think that it is still possible to produce a paged sim with the loader? I do still hope London Bridge will be produced one day, purely because I've been inside it! August 1986 (and some of you might remember why it had an open day in August 1986!) " said: It is my view, that any sim that is published should remain available permanently, so the last free version remains available for download. This is what other software sites do with regard to older versions.Really? Do they? *All* of them? They don't, of course. Every software company has a different policy, and it depends what their business model is. Furthermore I think you'll find very few software houses that have moved one product from "donationware" to "licenced", so there are very few comparisons to draw. I'd be surprised if you can find any comparable examples, where a software house has continued distributing a free version of a piece of software when the latest version of the same program is payware. Software companies that do provide archived old versions are generally either ones where the software is and always will be free, or ones where it is and always will be rather pricey (I suspect I can still download a set of MS-DOS installation disks under the terms of my MSDN subscription, but I'm very glad I don't pay for my MSDN subscription myself.) " said: There are 30 paid-for sims. To buy one copy of each of them would set you back £474.50p, a serious amount of money for any hobby activity and well out of the range of a lot of people.Fact check time again: you're overestimating by over 50 quid there. I make it 418.77 in total. It's a lot cheaper than, say, all of the Train Simulator additional content (over 4 times the price!) " said: Each time you pay for a sim, you are saying to yourself, well, I didn't really want the other ones. To me, you are not a true fan of SimSig.But...if you don't provide the developers with any remuneration at all for what you use, you *are* a true fan? That...doesn't exactly make sense. Aside from the fact that "true fan" is an awful, divisive and elitist term (who gives you the right to categorise other people as somehow less good at liking something than you are?), why should someone who actively gives money to an organisation be, in some way, less of a fan than someone who just uses what they can get for free? Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 22:19 #79314 | |
Splodge
721 posts |
Personally, I'm one of those that will play a sim on my own regardless of difficulty - in fact, the harder the better. I don't use ARS either, but enjoy using them to fill my day. I tend to play the latest sims depending on how new they are; but then default to my favourites - Edinburgh, Motherwell, Carlisle and Wembley Mainline being my favourites for the sheer variety in them - I enjoy Wimbledon and the Victorias, but find them a little bit too repetetive without turning the difficulty right up. Anyway, point being - I have paid for all of these sims, whether I use them much or not (and some of the quieter ones such as Wolves and Coventry I've very rarely used). To me it is an investment in a hobby that has given me years worth of enjoyment. When I was younger, all the sims being free was brilliant. However I am in the fortunate position that I can purchase every new sim when it is released. And I don't consider the price being asked to be excessive considering the amount of use I get; I've paid more for some Steam games which I've then gone on to use for less than 2 hours. I'm personally very happy for SimSig to continue in its current methods. Getting sims such as Leeds dropped onto us as surprises is a bonus; and a sim like that won't come without a fair few man hours behind it! There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: RainbowNines |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 28/12/2015 at 23:09 #79319 | |
Steamer
3997 posts |
" said:But there isn't any obligation to buy everything in one go, and many won't buy every simulation. Like any hobby, if you want absolutely everything it's going to cost you, but you can still have a good collection without breaking the bank. I've probably spend £200-£250 on SimSig since Payware started. I couldn't, and wouldn't, spend that much in one go, but over 3 or 4 years I'm quite happy to. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 00:34 #79320 | |
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dwelham313
139 posts |
I'd gladly pay for any updated sim (Cambridge and Sheffield especially!). I think it's unreasonable to expect the devs to invest countless hours into new/upgraded sims for no financial reward whatsoever. But I do agree that certain flagship sims should remain free. I've been playing SimSig since almost the very beginning and I've bought all the payware sims (apart from the Rugby trio which I'll get round to at some point) and I dread to think how many hours/days/weeks of my life I've spent playing! A few hundred quid for literally thousands of hours of entertainment seems pretty good to me. Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 02:39 #79321 | |
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Kage
65 posts |
Just throwing in my 2 cents: I've got most of the paid sims, save for some of the smaller ones that don't interest me. A few years ago, I'd be lucky to afford one a year. My finances are in a better state now. I started playing way back when SimSig first went to freeware in ~2003. I actually gave up on it when I first started, going into it with no knowledge of the subject, but tried again a few months later, and finally started understanding things. It was a lot less forgiving then. To paraphrase a quote: Your problem isn't Payware, it's obscurity. Let's be honest, the audience for things like this is very slim. Its a niche market (Signalling Sims) of a niche market (Rail Sims), and to the uninformed, it looks like an 80's DOS game. My interests happen to fall in those niches, and I still almost never got started. Had it remained totally payware, I likely would never have, and I can't really imagine SimSig having even a fraction of the sims we have now, or the number of players that we do now, and I also can't imagine Geoff making enough from it to buy any sort of vehicle, let alone a Ferrari :P I think that Geoff came to the conclusion that SimSig was better off being an advertisement for his skills and the services he could provide in the rail industry, and he's leveraged it to a successful career and his own company, and that making it free would get it out there for maximum exposure. I first heard of SimSig from frequenting various rail forums, but dismissed it as I didn't wan't to pay for something I might not like. I might have never thought about it again, if not for a forum post that SimSig had gone freeware. Payware does shrinks that audience even more. I get years of entertainment out of them so it's worth it to me (Though Leeds hurt a bit, due to CDN dollar nosediving) If SimSig was a commercial title from even a minor independent publisher, it would be up on the Pirate Bay within days if not hours of release. It's not there because it has a license manager, it's not there because there simply isn't the demand. Have anyone considered having some sort of rotating Free-to-play sim for something like a weekend, once a month or so? And promoted through "official" hosted games, maybe tied into a small sale on that sim? As far as people making something for free, yes they do, sometimes simply because they enjoy it, or recognition, I imagine writing a timetable from scratch involves a lot of time and dedication for no money. Look at the people here making mockups. I think Sheffield and Cambridge are the only paged ones that I still play, so +1 for updating them to scrolly :D Has anyone considered things like KickStarter or Patreon to get some of the old sims refreshed or new ones made? Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 08:57 #79325 | |
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JamesN
1612 posts
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KickStarter et al aren't likely to make much of a difference - as Geoff said a few posts above the decision (rightly) to upgrade a simulation lies with the original author of the sim, and as a result the time they have available to do that.
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| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 09:16 #79326 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:I did suggest something along those lines a month or so ago. I don't know, however, if what I suggested is technically possible. I will try and talk to Geoff about it and see what, if anything can be done. Kev Log in to reply |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 10:38 #79328 | |
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derbybest
274 posts |
There are people here who like myself are quite happy to pay for sims - however my position is that i am not working due to long term illness and therefore on benefits and so cannot afford much in the wsy of payware sims (thanks to Pascal for getting me New St/Wolverhampton & Coventry). I do have some though but it was a real struggle to get them. There are more i woud like but cannot afford any at this time so i am prepared to wait until i can. I have no objection to the devs 'getting paid' for all the time & effort they put in and still run their famiy life. On another note there are quite a few timetable writers who spend money to write the timetables like getting Wtt's/Station Working Books/Trip Notices etc(mainly heritage tt writers) who get nothing. I currently have 5 timetables on the go and like the devs do it as & when i can. I intend to carry on writing timetables for as long as i can but it has to fit round family,doctors & hospital appointments. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Mattyq, simmybear |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 11:05 #79329 | |
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simmybear
58 posts |
I have passed through a number of hobbies over the years (my most enduring one being photography) and currently railway signalling floats my boat - I have been fortunate to purchase a full set of most of what is currently available on UK signalling over a period of time and as I have suffered a long period of illness it has frankly helped with my sanity (although some may argue with that!)- I would certainly pay for older sims to be updated although for me the objective would be at least to 'Scrolly' status not necessarily full loader as I find the older paged versions look too dated on modern HD and 4K monitors and I like to be able to click on the overview window to take me to the relevant point on the sim. I shall certainly continue to enjoy using all of them although on the more complex ones i fear my drivers and passengers must think my punctuality is like Virgin trains! If humanly possible please don't abandon the older sims - their are some interesting layouts to operate and at the end of the day they took a lot of someone's time to bring to fruition. Happy New Year to all signallers real or virtual may your failures be few and your punctuality high. SIMON Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Mattyq |
| Upgrade of Legacy Exe Simulations - Donationware versus Payware 29/12/2015 at 17:01 #79348 | |
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Andrew G
552 posts
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Thanks for all of the responses to this thread. It appears the majority of responders accept the principle of paying for new simulations, although it has been rightly pointed out this can put them beyond the reach of some members of the community. In terms of significant upgrades (e.g. Paged/Exe to Loader/Scrolly) there is also interest in supporting these financially, especially if it might lead to some old favourites being brought up to the latest standards. The decision on whether any particular simulation is upgraded appears to be with the original developer. Accepting any issues around lack of formal support and future upgrades there is interest in the last version of Donationware simulation remaining available in the event of a simulation moving to Payware following a significant upgrade. Donationware is seen to be a good entry point for new members of the community and it has been suggested a few flagship simulations (e.g. Kings Cross) ideally need to stay in this model to allow new members to sample a full range of simulations (i.e. small and large control areas) before making any decision to buy - in fact a number of responders who were drawn into the community in this way have since gone on to make a number of purchases. I'll leave the interesting point of Working Timetable development for another day - beyond pointing out another UK Signalling Simulation provider charges between £5 and £15 per additional WTT and this is on top of circa £30 per simulation. I'm sure 2016 will provide another batch of excellent simulations and WTT for us to enjoy - thanks to all the simulation and WTT developers for their time. Last edited: 29/12/2015 at 17:02 by Andrew G Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Vortexhaha, slatteryc, headshot119, TimTamToe |