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| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 07/09/2017 at 06:58 #101594 | |
VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Since the Peterborough Friday 1977 timetable was released I have spent the time acquiring WTT and Public Timetable documentation in order that the timetable may be expanded to Mon-Fri. This I now have and the following is planned:- The Choices & Decisions system will determine randomly which which day's timetable will be created when the timetable is run. e.g. if a Monday is selected by the system, MX trains will not run but MO and trains that run EWD will run. The day selected will be indicated by a message in the Message Window. All trains extracted from the appropriate "conditional" freight timetables will be shown to run 50% of the time on the appropriate day. Trains that require an engine from Peterborough MPD to run will have their running controlled by that engine running 50% of the time on the appropriate day with a balancing rule. The actual trains themselves will not have the "runs as required" box ticked otherwise the engine may run and the train not run. Trip services will also be controlled by the Choices and Decisions system, certain sidings being serviced on certain days only, except Biggleswade, which will be serviced daily. The public timetable for 1977 has been very useful in determining which trains were "sleeper only" or "sleeper with seated passenger accommodation" and also a useful guide on which overnight Mail services also conveyed passenger accommodation. This may take a week or so to produce and then there is the testing of at least three run-throughs of each day's timetable. Some other changes have been made from the existing timetable in accordance with the appropriate WTT. I would hope that it will be available in a month's time. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 07/09/2017 at 07:06 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Airvan00, Phil-jmw, bossman, agincourt13, HST125Scorton |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 07/09/2017 at 08:38 #101596 | |
RainbowNines
272 posts |
This sounds very promising - timetables offering five (and more!) different combinations of running add much interest and - to borrow a term from the computer game world - great replay value. Keeping a keen eye on your progress. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 07/09/2017 at 11:53 #101598 | |
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whitetigger
25 posts |
I'm currently about half way through your current 1977TT and I'm very impressed. The addition of DOTW and other decisions will make it a very through and enjoyable timetable. Keep up the good work Vince! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 07/09/2017 at 18:39 #101610 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi, Thank you, its nice to know that it appreciated. This one will be a little bit different to 1977 Friday one. As you know in that timetable I tweaked the Class 1 ECML trains to try and alleviate the problem of early running and now I have the WTT for that year, I can clearly see why trains ran very early. Every down train has a chunk of engineering allowance between Holme and Fletton, up to five minutes in some cases. Couple that to some very loose booking for up trains and its easy to see how trains were arriving at Peterborough up to 9 minutes early so I've come to the conclusion that its not a sim issue but simply that trains are allowed far too much time in the WTT. I suspect that this may be due a major engineering project which was going on at the time requiring speed restrictions for the period of the timetable in the two track section. However, in this one I've decided to go back to the actual WTT times. It was a useful experiment but there is much to be said for getting things as accurate as possible and that is what I'm aiming for. Putting a long 20mph restriction on the DFL around Stilton Fen and a long 20mph restriction at Tallington on the UFL worked well and took out most of the extra time, so that's what I'll recommend for this one when its finished. I also intend to de-time shunt moves at Huntingdon and engine moves to and from yards and the MPD. These times aren't shown in the WTT anyway and were guesswork, so it will be a decent challenge for the user get engines and DMUs across the north end of Peterborough and Huntingdon stations in time for their trains. Thanks very much for your nice comments, Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 07/09/2017 at 19:01 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: whitetigger |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 07/09/2017 at 19:08 #101611 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
I would have thought the engineering allowance would also be there to apply for projects further afield and would have been a feature of the entire timetable period. Back in 77 there would have been more speed restrictions for track laying as there was no quick way to settle any relayed track IIRC pit could take 2/3 weeks for a relayed section of track to be back to linespeed
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: VInce |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 23/09/2017 at 08:54 #101882 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, Just an update and a query. I have the main timetable now finished and have included Saturdays as well, so when it eventually surfaces, it will be a six-day timetable. I'm adding some Saturday night possession trains after 2100 when the service starts to wind down a bit, so as there is some activity between 2100 and the end of the timetable. I still have the testing to do for each day so it will a while yet until it is available. I have a question, however. One of the problems with the 1977 ECML Section YA Kings Cross - Ayton WTT in so far as the sim is concerned, was the large amount of Engineering/Pathing allowances for all mainline trains resulting in some excessive early running (up to 12 minutes in some cases). I've been looking at converting the 1977 timetable to a 1978 one as they are broadly comparable and it wouldn't take an inordinate amount of time and effort to do this. This would have the advantage that there are no large Engineering/Pathing allowances and thus the early running would be much reduced. I thought I had all of the documentation I needed to do this until I looked at the 1978/79 Section YA which by this time was called "Kings Cross to Berwick". The local Kings Cross - Huntingdon/Peterborough service is not in the 1978 Section YA. Judging by the extension of Section YA to Berwick, some re-organisation of the timetable areas must have taken place around this time. Its my guess that the local service was transferred to a Kings Cross Suburban book. I have a 1972/3 one but really need access to a 1978 or later to confirm my suspicions. I'm on the lookout to buy one but there is nothing around at the moment. Do any timetable compilers have access to a Kings Cross Suburban book for 1978 or later and could confirm that the Peterborough/Huntingdon locals are in it please? Thanks Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 23/09/2017 at 09:01 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 23/09/2017 at 15:46 #101892 | |
58050
2659 posts |
Vince for the local services between London King's Cross - Peterborough - London King's Cross you would need to look at the Section YB WTT which gives details of the King's Cross Suburban District & all the services are covered in that publication.The DMU services from Peterborough/Huntingdon went as far as Hiychin. In my 1973-1974 King's Cross station platform working book there are no DMU services from Peterborough/Huntingdon going into King's Cross. There are some that originate at Hitchin as well as a myriad of loco hauled services which end up using the 'Widen Lines' at King's Cross station. The 1985 - 1986 platform working books I have for King's Cross also show the same. The DMU service from Peterborough/Huntingdon terminated at Hitchin & passengers went forward on EMUs originating from Royston. Class 2 services from Peterborough/Huntingdon only ran direct into King's Cross once the lines from King's Cross - Peterborough - King's Cross were electrified. There was a handful of services that ran direct between King's Cross - Peterborough/Huntingdon - King's Cross, but these only ran during the morning & evening peak.
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| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 23/09/2017 at 17:11 #101896 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi 58050, Thanks. In the YC 1977 - 1978 there was a) A weekday peak hour loco-hauled service Peterborough - KX and vice versa. b) A weekday irregular (but roughly hourly) DMU service Huntingdon - Hitchin with some extended to Hertford North and vice versa. Electrification came to Kings Cross - Hitchin between 1976 and 1978 so by the next timetable they all have gone, transferred to YB. Ill try and find a copy. Thanks mate - nice to hear from you again. I'll respond to the sleeper discussion later after I get back from the Derby Royal Hospital. Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 23/09/2017 at 17:13 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 23/09/2017 at 21:37 #101902 | |
Red For Danger
172 posts |
Yes - That's correct on the DMU's. The service from Kings Cross off peak was towards Cambridge / Royston and there was an approx hourly service between Hitchin and Huntingdon with 2 car class 150's. At Hitchin they were stabled between trips in a siding just South of Hitchin on the Down side which is now the car park for the station. This is not shown on the old layout of the Kings Cross Sim but the keen eyed will see the end post for the electrification wires put in for the she sidings. Incidentally, the sidings were removed shortly after the extension of the electric service to Peterborough to extend the car park.
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| Peterborough 1977 Mon - Fri under construction. 03/10/2017 at 19:46 #102024 | |
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VInce
579 posts |
Hi all, I have about a week's testing still to complete so I expect the new 1977 Mon- Sat Peterborough timetable to be available by the 12th October. I've written some lengthy notes to go along with the timetable and these will give you an idea of what to expect. For the record, including daily variations there are 839 trains in the timetable, 506 rules to make them run and 248 "Train Types". Here we go then I'm indebted to Peter Bennet for his work in creating the original Fridays Only timetable and to Postal for pointing me in the direction of a wonderful on-line resource where the booked formations of all the loco-hauled passenger trains in this timetable could be found. This timetable represents a significant expansion of Peter's work - it now includes all trains that run on Mondays to Saturdays including those which ran during the sugar-beet harvest season, when a considerable number of trains ran from East Anglia to various destinations in the West Country and the Midlands. Certain holiday trains run in the Saturday timetable. ECML trains in the 1977 WTT had a considerable engineering and pathing allowance due to extensive upgrade work that was taking place at various locations. This will cause trains to run early, often significantly so and cause just as many problems as trains running late. If the early running really concerns you may I suggest the following: Using the F11 Incident Control Panel place whole train 20mph speed restrictions for passenger trains in the following track circuits T7011A & T7012A DFL Stilton Fen, T8422 & T8423 on the UFL at Tallington. This will successfully take out a lot of this "recovery time". I have tried to put as much control as is possible in the hands of the user, so, where possible, local movements (including reversals) in the Peterborough station area, Huntingdon Station area and reversals at Connington South are generally not timed. They are not shown in the WTT so such times would be guesswork anyway. So, even if the train is early, when the custom reversal time has elapsed, the train is ready to leave and it is up to you when you let it go. Keep your eye on the F2 trains list. However understandably ARS has a problem with un-timed shunt moves so for the unit crossovers at Huntingdon a "d" departure time from Huntingdon North has had to be specified to prevent ARS stopping DFL services "giving priority" to an untimed DMU shunt. The possession trains and on-track machines that run in the Saturday timetable are typical of the time. In the weekend engineering circulars, they were only given the barest of timetables too with just a departure time and sometimes an arrival time so that is the case in this timetable too. A few things to be aware of:- 1) This is 1977 when the railway was very, very different place from what it is today. I know, I was there! Freight and Passenger trains all had guards who, in those far-off days had considerable operating responsibility. Propelling movements of long trains over considerable distances was commonplace, controlled by a guard's handsignals from the brake vehicle of ECS/ENPCCS trains and a brakevan on non-fully fitted freight trains. 2) Freight trains ran very early as well as very late. In those days signallers (or was it "signalmen" then?) had a simple rule - if it was ready to go and had a margin to the next refuge point then off it went and there was no hanging around for WTT time or asking other signalboxes if they could accept a train early. So if you wish to use this timetable in the spirit of those days you should adopt this policy. 3) If my memory is correct, 1977 was the first year in which loco-hauled trains replaced DMUs between Birmingham and Norwich. However DMU substitutions occured on a daily basis as a result of failures and stock shortages. The UID suffix on the F2 list will tell you which trains are loco-hauled and which are DMU e.g. ZEH731DMU or ZQS557LH. Things to be aware of..... 1) If using ARS, 5B49SO 0905 EDMU Hitchin - Biggleswade via Sandy (reverse) on arrival at Biggleswade, due to a sim limitation, the Train Description does not update from 5B49 to 2H94. This will have to be done manually otherwise ARS will not pick up the train. 2) All trip workings (trains with T in the train description), engineering trains, on-track machines and local movements (around the Peterborough area) are not timed, save for an entry time. You will have to find paths for these yourself to get resources to where they required promptly. If you are using ARS then you will need to make all of these non-ARS at the entry point or you find trains many miles away will be waiting for them. If ARS is in use, on the Monday timetable one of the first things to do is to make the two OTM's at Sandy non-ARS. 3) Trip workings entering Sandy Down Sidings will require the hand points to be reversed (select the appropriate entry from the "lever frames" menu). 4) 6E34 1957 Castle Bromwich - Ketton Wards Cement will sneak up on you if you are not vigilant and will stand at Ketton No. 3 signal (not shown on the sim) waiting for you to operate the GF. Keep your eye on the trains entering the system and also the F2 Trains List. While it is standing there it blocks the Up Stamford. After it has been admitted and detaches its train (in reality, for the works shunt engine to collect later) the train engine 0M44 will ask your permission to enter - when you have given this you will need to operate the GF to allow it to run towards Peterborough. 5) At this time virtually all on-track machines were given the description 7Z09. Thus on the Monday morning and the Saturday night timetable you will have 3 x 7Z09 descriptions on the panel at once. You need to ensure the right one goes to the right place! 6) Much testing has been done to ensure that the number of conflicts is very small. In disrupted conditons though, you may occasionally get a stand off between the Loco Sidings Down Side entry point and and the Shunt Line from the Yard. To resolve this you will need to shunt the loco from the yard to the shunt spur to clear, then manually reverse it. The movement from the Shunt Spur to the Shunt Line will require you to be quick and reverse the train manually again before it disappears back into the yard! Again in disrupted conditions, should you get a stand-off at Nene Sidings with trains trying to leave and enter, then you will have to do some fancy shunting in the station to clear a platform for the exiting train(s). ___________________________________________________________________________________________ The Choices & Decisions system will determine randomly which which day's timetable will be created when you start the timetable. For example, if a Monday is selected by the system, MX trains will not run but MO and EWD trains will run. The day selected will be indicated by a message in the Message Window. All trains extracted from the appropriate "conditional" timetable will be shown to run 50% of the time. Trip services will also be controlled by the Choices and Decisions system, certain sidings being serviced on certain days only. Information for trip workings was provided anecdotally from people who were working at Peterborough at this time. Peterborough CS (as opposed to Nene CS), Peterborough Parcels Terminal and Peterborough Yard all share a common entrance/exit called Peterborough Yard on the simulation. When trains arrived they were sorted internally by a manual signal box (Eastfield Jcn at the north end and Spital Jcn at the south end) into the correct group of sidings within the yard. Peterborough CS acted as a holding point for ECS trains between Platforms 2 & 3 and Nene CS. Peterborough CS also stabled the stock for the Midland and Anglia Postal trains. In the 1977 WTTs from which this timetable was extracted, all Class 6 trains were timed at 45mph. That does not mean to say they ran at 45mph, as at this time the air-braked network was expanding and many AB Class 6 trains ran at 60mph. The train description/category will state when a Class 6 train was running at 45mph. For those who may not have been around during this time in history, Class 7 trains ran at a maximum speed of 45mph, Class 8 at 35mph and Class 9 at either 25mph (or 15mph if a Class 08 engine was used). Flyash trains to and from the Flyash circle all ran at a maximum speed of 55mph, as shown in the BR Supplementary Operating Instructions for 1977 - see here if you are interested. http://files.limitofshunt.org.uk/supplementary-operating-instructions/br-er/southern-area-1977-04-02.pdf Additionally certain trains in the WTT classified as Class 8, often ran as Class 6 or 7 according to the type of wagons being conveyed on the day. For example the Croft Quarry - Whitemoor - Leyton Depot services were shown and timed as Class 8 in the WTT but regularly ran as Class 6 or 7. The timetable will select the class of the train on the day. The BRB introduced a pilot scheme of air-braked freight wagon-load services a few years before 1977 and it was in this year it was finally adopted and given the name "Speedlink". There are a small number of trains designated either "Speedlink Trunk Service" or "Speedlink Feeder Service" in this timetable. As per the WTT, all sleeper trains in this timetable run at 80mph although the stock was passed for a higher speed. In reality, sleeper trains ran at this speed unless delayed more than 15min which case they ran at 90mph. Similarly postal trains (i.e. those conveying Post Office staff in a sorting vehicle (POS or NSV)) also ran at 80mph. This was for the comfort of the Post Office staff as it was known that the ride on the Mk 1 sorting vehicles got a bit lively at over 80mph! On the Saturday timetable lines some lines are blocked for engineering possessions at 2200. Some possession trains and on-track machines run. The possession trains are provided but you need to take the possessions yourself at 2200. Remember, signals are not operated in possessions thus ARS must be switched off, and the PICOP (you!) must authorise all movements. You must also move all points manually. When in the possession the Incident Control Panel (F11) can be used to get trains to pass the next signals at danger and pause trains to position them appropriately. See the wiki for more details about possessions. Timetabled trains are diverted via the slow lines but not retimed (as was the custom of the day) so they will run late but their engineering time allowance should take care of that before leaving the sim. The SIM ends at 0230 (2630) Sunday and when the last timetabled train has run you can shut down the sim leaving the possession trains berthed where they stand. Possession U&DFL St. Neots - Sandy from 2200. Possession Limits are P312 to K768 UFL and K765 to P315 DFL. Possession train 6K50 waits at P312 until the possession is taken and proceeds to site of of work at Sandy station. The train requires to run to Sandy South and then set back through the crossover and stand on the DFL whilst reballasting work takes place on the UFL. A couple of on-track machines are moved to Sandy Up and Down sidings earlier in the evening ready to start work after the stone-drop has been completed. Possession U&DFL Werrington Jcn - Little Bytham from 2200. Possession Limits are P503 to P579 DFL and P582 to P502 DFL. Work is tamping and picking up rails at Tallington. A tamper leaves Peterborough Engineers Sidings and stands at P503 until the possession is taken, then runs to site at Tallington, crosses to the UFL via the main/main crossover and sets back to work between Tallington North and South. After this has been accomplished, possession train 6K51 is admitted to the possession at P503 and runs to site working between Tallington South and North on the DFL unloading new rail and picking up scrap rails from the DFL cess. Possession Up&Down Stamford Slow from 2200. Possession Limits P471 to fouling point 1267B points on the Down Stamford and fouling point 1267A points to P470 on the up Stamford. No trains working in the possession - New England North Junction available to cross trains DFL - DSL and USL - UFL. Enjoy Vince I walk around inside the questions of my day, I navigate the inner reaches of my disarray, I pass the altars where fools and thieves hold sway, I wait for night to come and lift this dread away : Jackson Browne - The Night Inside Me Last edited: 04/10/2017 at 00:21 by VInce Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: derbybest, BarryM, Dick, Airvan00, Phil-jmw, WesternChampion, norman B, bossman |