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TCFs in dark territory 29/07/2018 at 21:59 #110540 | |
Muzer
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I didn't spot anything about this in the manual so apologies if it's not mentioned. When there's a TCF in a dark territory, I gather trains are supposed to pass automatic signals at danger on their own authority? I'm sure I read that, perhaps on the description on how the signalling system works. Because that doesn't seem to be happening; the train has just been showing "Stopped at signal 261.8" in the train list, without a message in the Messages window or a phone call (as I'd expect, since it's dark territory). EDIT: Actually, it keeps flicking between "Stopped at signal 261.8" and "Moving at 0km/h" so this looks more like a bug to me. EDIT2: A strategically-timed press of "shunt forwards" got it out of the loop. Last edited: 29/07/2018 at 22:00 by Muzer Reason: None given Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 30/07/2018 at 10:35 #110553 | |
Mattyq
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The rule in NSW for passing an Automatic (permissive) signal at Stop is for the Driver to try and contact the NCO (Signaller) after a prescribed time limit. If communicatons are not available, the Driver can perform a risk assessment then pass the signal at Stop without authority. This is difficult to simulate so trains must still be called past by the NCO. I will note this in the manual. Thank you for bringing it up. The issue of a train bobbing between "0km/h" and "stopped at signal" is a genuine bug and is being addressed. (Mantis 21365) Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Last edited: 30/07/2018 at 10:39 by Mattyq Reason: None given Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 30/07/2018 at 11:51 #110559 | |
jc92
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Mattyq in post 110553 said:The rule in NSW for passing an Automatic (permissive) signal at Stop is for the Driver to try and contact the NCO (Signaller) after a prescribed time limit. If communicatons are not available, the Driver can perform a risk assessment then pass the signal at Stop without authority. This is difficult to simulate so trains must still be called past by the NCO. I will note this in the manual. Thank you for bringing it up.Interesting. I had a tcf occur on the track circuit just prior to entering dark territory at mittagong and the driver of the next train never called. He just continued through. I didn't report as I assumed it was correct practice. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Gwasanaethau |
TCFs in dark territory 30/07/2018 at 12:04 #110560 | |
jc92
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As an aside. Can anyone explain what a dark territory actually is? It looks to me like a remote automatic interlocking that doesn't report anything back to the controlling box. Is this where former local boxes have closed and been left local so to speak?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 30/07/2018 at 21:47 #110594 | |
Sparky
![]() 84 posts |
"Dark Territory" is a section of usually automatic signaling that is not indicated on any panel. A lot of the time this wasn't a result of box closure but just a cheap way of signaling a section that didn't necessarily require controller input. A lot of the dark territory sections have been updated and are now indicated on a panel however the section in this sim that are dark are still dark in reality. As the sections get re-signaled this will change
I intend to live forever. So far so good Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 30/07/2018 at 21:47 #110595 | |
Gwasanaethau
![]() 509 posts |
Further to this, I talked a train past 203.6 in the dark territory at Bowning due to a TCF there. Apart from the bobbing speeds mentioned above, I also found that the train hasn’t stopped either at 201.1 or YJ24 to report in – it is still happily toddling towards Yass Junction at 32km/h. I do not have a save from before I sent the train through, but I do have one of the situation as it now stands (with the train slowly creeping towards Yass Junction). The train in question is 3MB4. Excellent sim, by the way! Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 01/08/2018 at 17:38 #110654 | |
Mattyq
![]() 259 posts |
Gwasanaethau in post 110595 said:Further to this, I talked a train past 203.6 in the dark territory at Bowning due to a TCF there. Apart from the bobbing speeds mentioned above, I also found that the train hasn’t stopped either at 201.1 or YJ24 to report in – it is still happily toddling towards Yass Junction at 32km/h.Not sure I fully understand? Where was the TCF (if you could see it)? Gwasanaethau in post 110595 said: I do not have a save from before I sent the train through, but I do have one of the situation as it now stands (with the train slowly creeping towards Yass Junction). The train in question is 3MB4.Much appreciated! Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 01/08/2018 at 18:26 #110664 | |
Gwasanaethau
![]() 509 posts |
Mattyq in post 110654 said:Gwasanaethau in post 110595 said:Further to this, I talked a train past 203.6 in the dark territory at Bowning due to a TCF there. Apart from the bobbing speeds mentioned above, I also found that the train hasn’t stopped either at 201.1 or YJ24 to report in – it is still happily toddling towards Yass Junction at 32km/h.Not sure I fully understand? Where was the TCF (if you could see it)? It wasn’t visible, but I believe it would’ve been between 203.6 and the end of the dark territory (roughly where the red arrow is pointing in the attached image). I asked the driver of the train to pass the signal (203.6) at danger and examine the line, hence why they were only moving at 32km/h. I was expecting them to stop at the next signal and call in (as they would normally do in the English sims), but they just kept going at 32km/h. I ended up solving it by reverting YJ10 back to double-red, expecting the driver to stop there when they reached it. They ended up stopping at YJ20 (at yellow) to report that the line was clear. They accelerated to line speed after that. ![]() Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 02/08/2018 at 09:02 #110675 | |
Mattyq
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Gwasanaethau in post 110664 said:Mattyq in post 110654 said:Ah, asking the Driver to examine the line, I didn't pick that bit up in the 1st message. The trains bobbing between 0km/h and "stopped at signal" appears to be causing many issues. It's been logged to those more knowledgeable than me. I'll log the train not stopping at an auto as a separate issue.Gwasanaethau in post 110595 said:Further to this, I talked a train past 203.6 in the dark territory at Bowning due to a TCF there. Apart from the bobbing speeds mentioned above, I also found that the train hasn’t stopped either at 201.1 or YJ24 to report in – it is still happily toddling towards Yass Junction at 32km/h.Not sure I fully understand? Where was the TCF (if you could see it)? Mantis 21374 Thank you for your time and effort. :-) Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 03/08/2018 at 16:54 #110718 | |
GeoffM
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jc92 in post 110560 said:As an aside. Can anyone explain what a dark territory actually is? It looks to me like a remote automatic interlocking that doesn't report anything back to the controlling box. Is this where former local boxes have closed and been left local so to speak?Just a side note on this: there are other definitions of dark territory around the world that differ from this. The US version, for example, usually doesn't have interlockings and sometimes relies on the train crew moving points. But even for the US that's only one definition. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 04/08/2018 at 16:07 #110745 | |
Mattyq
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GeoffM in post 110718 said:jc92 in post 110560 said:Just to confuse matters, "Dark Territory" is also used in Australia for safeworking systems where the position of the train is not directly relayed back to the Train Controller/Signaller and movement of Main Line points are usually done by train crew, even if remotely from the Drivers cab. This can be token (Staff) Working, Train Order Working or QLD's DTC system.As an aside. Can anyone explain what a dark territory actually is? It looks to me like a remote automatic interlocking that doesn't report anything back to the controlling box. Is this where former local boxes have closed and been left local so to speak?Just a side note on this: there are other definitions of dark territory around the world that differ from this. The US version, for example, usually doesn't have interlockings and sometimes relies on the train crew moving points. But even for the US that's only one definition. To REALLY confuse matters, NSW's Train Order system has GPS tracking of trains. Therefore, the exact position of all trains is relayed back to the Controller. That said, it is still referred to as "Dark Territory". Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Log in to reply |
TCFs in dark territory 04/08/2018 at 17:40 #110750 | |
jc92
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Mattyq in post 110745 said:GeoffM in post 110718 said:So, in summary, Australia is as confusing and has as many exceptions and variations as the UK does!jc92 in post 110560 said:Just to confuse matters, "Dark Territory" is also used in Australia for safeworking systems where the position of the train is not directly relayed back to the Train Controller/Signaller and movement of Main Line points are usually done by train crew, even if remotely from the Drivers cab. This can be token (Staff) Working, Train Order Working or QLD's DTC system.As an aside. Can anyone explain what a dark territory actually is? It looks to me like a remote automatic interlocking that doesn't report anything back to the controlling box. Is this where former local boxes have closed and been left local so to speak?Just a side note on this: there are other definitions of dark territory around the world that differ from this. The US version, for example, usually doesn't have interlockings and sometimes relies on the train crew moving points. But even for the US that's only one definition. Thanks for the replies "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: hotwellian |
TCFs in dark territory 04/08/2018 at 20:21 #110763 | |
Gwasanaethau
![]() 509 posts |
Mattyq in post 110675 said:…On re-reading my original post, I forgot to mention that I had asked the driver to examine the line, so no wonder you were so confused! XD Mattyq in post 110675 said: Thank you for your time and effort. :-)You’re welcome! ![]() Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Mattyq |
TCFs in dark territory 05/08/2018 at 07:06 #110769 | |
Mattyq
![]() 259 posts |
jc92 in post 110750 said:Mattyq in post 110745 said:Yeah so when it comes to confusing, take UK, multiply it by 30 (6 state railway systems + 24 major privately owned* rail networks) and you have the level of rail industry confusion in Australia!!! :-OGeoffM in post 110718 said:So, in summary, Australia is as confusing and has as many exceptions and variations as the UK does!jc92 in post 110560 said:Just to confuse matters, "Dark Territory" is also used in Australia for safeworking systems where the position of the train is not directly relayed back to the Train Controller/Signaller and movement of Main Line points are usually done by train crew, even if remotely from the Drivers cab. This can be token (Staff) Working, Train Order Working or QLD's DTC system.As an aside. Can anyone explain what a dark territory actually is? It looks to me like a remote automatic interlocking that doesn't report anything back to the controlling box. Is this where former local boxes have closed and been left local so to speak?Just a side note on this: there are other definitions of dark territory around the world that differ from this. The US version, for example, usually doesn't have interlockings and sometimes relies on the train crew moving points. But even for the US that's only one definition. (*24 = 20 independent sugar tram systems in QLD + 4 iron ore systems in WA. Does not include smaller operations like Comalco bauxite railway in Weipa etc). The best thing about standards is there are so many to choose from! (I. Ives). :-) Not fat ..... fluffy!! (G Iglesias) Log in to reply |