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Stockport FAQ 18/02/2019 at 08:44 #115830
9pN1SEAp
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Online 		I had pre-selected slot acceptance from Northenden for a late-running express, but as it entered the sim the remote box still requested the slot. Is this correct?

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Jamie
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Stockport FAQ 18/02/2019 at 09:25 #115831
postal
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5331 posts 		9pN1SEAp in post 115830 said:
I had pre-selected slot acceptance from Northenden for a late-running express, but as it entered the sim the remote box still requested the slot. Is this correct?

Thanks
Jamie
Same sort of thing happens on CScot at Dunblane for trains from Greenloaning. Pre-selected slot is also cancelled and you have to go back and reset the slot.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Stockport FAQ 18/02/2019 at 09:45 #115832
Sacro
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1171 posts 		postal in post 115831 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 115830 said:
I had pre-selected slot acceptance from Northenden for a late-running express, but as it entered the sim the remote box still requested the slot. Is this correct?

Thanks
Jamie
Same sort of thing happens on CScot at Dunblane for trains from Greenloaning. Pre-selected slot is also cancelled and you have to go back and reset the slot.
Sounds like bugs on both to me.
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Stockport FAQ 18/02/2019 at 10:50 #115833
pedroathome
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931 posts 		Sacro in post 115832 said:
postal in post 115831 said:
9pN1SEAp in post 115830 said:
I had pre-selected slot acceptance from Northenden for a late-running express, but as it entered the sim the remote box still requested the slot. Is this correct?

Thanks
Jamie
Same sort of thing happens on CScot at Dunblane for trains from Greenloaning. Pre-selected slot is also cancelled and you have to go back and reset the slot.
Sounds like bugs on both to me.
I'd agree that its a bug, and is fixed for the next update
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Stockport FAQ 19/02/2019 at 21:17 #115875
whatlep
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377 posts 		Possibly a dumb question, but if changing locos at Heaton Norris Jn, how do you get the locos off/onto a train? I assume the intent is to have the train come to a stand on the Up Goods and do the deed there, but can't figure out how to get the move made. Location and/or programmed moves missing?
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Stockport FAQ 19/02/2019 at 21:28 #115876
Steamer
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4028 posts 		Looks like the paths are missing between Heaton Norris Jn and the EHS/ERS. Mantis 23599.
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Last edited: 19/02/2019 at 21:29 by Steamer
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Stockport FAQ 20/02/2019 at 16:51 #115883
whatlep
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377 posts 		Another possible missed path or two. It seems to be impossible to get ST-1 69/77/78 to clear for loco moves back onto trains in both platforms 1 & 2 (i.e. diesel to electric loco changes) if those platforms are already occupied. Message "Subroute locked in opposite direction" comes up. Locos must be cautioned past the signal at danger.

The reverse facility for electric to diesel changes on platforms 3/4 works fine.
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Stockport FAQ 20/02/2019 at 17:39 #115884
Steamer
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4028 posts 		whatlep in post 115883 said:
Another possible missed path or two. It seems to be impossible to get ST-1 69/77/78 to clear for loco moves back onto trains in both platforms 1 & 2 (i.e. diesel to electric loco changes) if those platforms are already occupied. Message "Subroute locked in opposite direction" comes up. Locos must be cautioned past the signal at danger.
Not a pathing issue (that's related to timetabling), but an issue non the less. Mantis 23605.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Stockport FAQ 08/03/2025 at 16:04 #160424
KCRCRailway
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44 posts 		A question from someone who never got near Stockport IRL.
How do 5 boxes work out? There isn't much "black hole" if any between boxes.
Would that means either IRL all 5 are actually next to each other so they can communicate, or they constantly use phone to inform next boxes who will then contact the next-next boxes?
Ask as I realize you will most certainly delay some stuff when they are not planned to stop in station, unless all 5 boxes each open their part of through route.
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Stockport FAQ 08/03/2025 at 17:02 #160425
jc92
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3734 posts 		Normal working is via block bells, but they also have telephones where required, and nowadays a train describer that shows what's about in the general area.

Incidentally Stockport still retains an extensive list of routing codes for trains eg electric Class 2 for Hazel grove, Diesel Class 2 for Hazel Grove, Diesel class 2 for Sheffield, Class 2 for Northenden, Class 2 for Crewe, Class 2 for Macclesfield just to break down the southbound class 2s! these allow the signallers to know exactly what they're being offered.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Stockport FAQ 08/03/2025 at 17:38 #160426
KCRCRailway
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44 posts 		How would the dude at the station's box(es) arrange which line they send it out? Is it just blindly send to whatever line was open in time of complete melt down, or they will keep contact with next boxes to know if the next boxes require a specific line?
*Not really an issue IRL as I imagine no sane people run a full TT when Manchester Picadilly---Longsight lost a pair of line, but will be funny to see how the clog at Manchester got transmit all the way to Stockport box*
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Stockport FAQ 08/03/2025 at 20:35 #160428
TUT
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566 posts 		I'm not too sure exactly what you're asking or how much detail you want. You also might be better off asking a new question on the 'The real thing' board https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/BoardView/23

There are photographs of the Stockport boxes on the web, for example:

https://photos.signalling.org/index?/category/523-manchester_area_including_stockport
https://www.flickr.com/photos/llangollen_signalman/albums/72157626540723260/

And there are videos as well. There are at least a couple on YouTube but if that's no good to you, FARSAP does have one of Edgeley No 2

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/videoPages/Stockport.php

I assume you know that in general each line or pair of lines will have its own block instrument with its own (relatively) distinct bell. You get to know the different tones of the different bells so you know which line a train is being offered on. You can see at Edgeley No 2 they've even incorporated a little visual indicator showing you which bell just rang. There are some unique block instruments in that part of the world. Elsewhere, as a more rudimentary alternative, people have been known to leave objects balanced in such a way that they'll be knocked off when the bell rings to help them tell which bell rang! To be honest BR's penguin block instruments do have quite similar sounding bells. The Western's bells are easier to distinguish. I believe Scotland was fond of using a bell for one box and a gong for another.

So yes you know which line you're being offered a train on. I have never worked in Stockport, but as jc92 quite rightly says, there's a very extensive list of routing bell codes so you know exactly what you're being offered and where it's going. You have TRUST so you can keep an eye on what's about and also the train describer will show you where everything is so that part of the job is pretty well taken care of.

All that being the case an experienced signaller should generally have a good idea what their colleagues in rear are doing and what their colleagues in advance are expecting them to do. You have good visibility of what's going on and with experience you'll know what to look for and what to expect. It's like anything.

For anything else there is of course always the phone and it is of course customary to pass messages down the line, although if a message is coming from Control you might be able to leave them to let your colleagues know. It's like anything. A little bit of experience will soon allow you to judge what your colleague needs to be told and what they can work out for themselves, or what can be left to the bells etc.

Just today it so happened that my colleague was busy dealing with an incident. I'd accepted an express passenger train from him and had subsequently found out that it was delayed. I was wondering if he might prefer to send me the ordinary passenger train coming from the other line at his junction first. However knowing he was busy I did not trouble him with a phone call. Instead when he sent me cancelling for the express passenger and then simply offered me the ordinary passenger obviously I knew what was happening, there was no need for a discussion. I did decide to tell my colleague at the next box however that he would be getting the ordinary passenger train first to help with his regulating. Sometimes a discussion is necessary, sometimes a discussion is helpful although not necessary, and sometimes it is completely unnecessary.

If you were offered a train on one line but you wanted it on another I'm not sure how they would do things at Stockport specifically. However at Shrub Hill if Tunnel Junction offers a freight train on the Main (through the station) and Shrub Hill wants it on the Up Through Siding (avoiding the station) it is customary to simply accept it on the Through Siding bell and then Tunnel has their answer. Perhaps the signallers at Stockport would do something similar. When Shrub Hill offers trains to Tunnel Junction, however, it is customary to give Tunnel Junction a heads-up on the telephone if you're switching the line you're going to send them the train on. There isn't any need for this. You could offer a train booked to run over the Up Main on the Down Main bell and then Tunnel would know which line it was coming on. But the junction at Tunnel is in the clearing point and so they will likely have already set up ready for the train to come on the line they think you're going to offer it on. They will then need to reset the junction before they can accept the train on the other line, so you might as well save everyone a headache and tell them about it first.

I think I know what you're thinking of when you talk about delaying trains which don't stop. You might possibly be aware that in the normal method of signalling you offer a train on to the next box when (and only when) you receive train entering section from the previous box. Where sections are short, it is typical (I can only assume it must be the case around Stockport, but I don't work those boxes) that the box instructions will authorise is line clear to be sent forward immediately upon receipt. So you wouldn't wait for train entering section to offer on the train, you would instead immediately offer it on as soon as you had accepted it. Technically this is only to be done where authorised in the signal box special instructions but 'considerate' signalling is not uncommon whereby bells will be grouped so that you take the opportunity to do as much as you can in one go. I have heard tell of a manager being rather unimpressed at witnessing a train being offered and accepted one Sunday despite the fact that it was over an hour's running time away at that point. But it was the next one, so why not.
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Stockport FAQ 10/03/2025 at 07:42 #160443
jc92
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3734 posts 		Just to add to what TUT has said, there used to be (possibly still is?) a box regulator in Stockport No2 who is a qualified signaller, but essentially there job is that of a mini controller and they would've made decisions on alterations, altered priority etc that keep things flowing and then phoned the relevant boxes and station announcer. Otherwise the platform and line codes are as per its timetable.

The other tool that's largely consigned to history is the omnibus circuit which is essentially a telephone circuit open to all boxes simultaneously that allows you to have a conference call about issues like this. I'm unsure if Stockport has/had this or it was ever used.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Stockport FAQ 10/03/2025 at 16:30 #160455
Splodge
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730 posts 		I don't think Stockport 2 has a regulator any more though it is double manned most of the day. Things like CCF now give them a much better overview of the area beyond their control to assist in regulating though I'd say 95% of the time you arrive on one line and will stay on it, it's pretty rare for any of the boxes to shunt you slow to fast under normal operation
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Stockport FAQ 10/03/2025 at 18:12 #160457
TUT
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566 posts 		Splodge in post 160455 said:
I don't think Stockport 2 has a regulator any more though it is double manned most of the day. Things like CCF now give them a much better overview of the area beyond their control to assist in regulating though I'd say 95% of the time you arrive on one line and will stay on it, it's pretty rare for any of the boxes to shunt you slow to fast under normal operation
I don't mean to be picky, but when you say shunt you slow to fast, do you mean simply cross you slow to fast? I have never heard shunt used that way before.
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Stockport FAQ 10/03/2025 at 18:31 #160459
Splodge
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730 posts 		Sorry, I do mean cross as a route although as drivers we'll use all sorts of verbs to describe it (shunt, throw, chuck, spin), and if having a bad day we can add some colourful adverbs too
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway.
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Stockport FAQ 10/03/2025 at 19:25 #160465
TUT
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566 posts 		That's very interesting, thank you for that, as a signaller I would only ever use the word shunt to mean, well, how does the Rule Book describe it, 'any movement of a train or vehicle other than a train passing normally along a running line'. That might include shunting into a siding or depot, proceeding on the authority of a shunting signal rather than a main signal, making an unsignalled shunting movement or passing a signal at danger for shunting purposes, or simply moving around the layout, say shunting over to a bay platform by shunting out of one platform, changing ends and then shunting back into the bay platform. Crossing between fast and slow lines on main signals in service I wouldn't ever think to call a shunt, but it's always handy to be abreast of other people's slang however much we are all encouraged to avoid it in safety critical communications.
Last edited: 10/03/2025 at 19:26 by TUT
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Stockport FAQ 12/03/2025 at 12:39 #160498
KCRCRailway
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44 posts 		TUT in post 160428 said:
You get to know the different tones of the different bells so you know which line a train is being offered on. You can see at Edgeley No 2 they've even incorporated a little visual indicator showing you which bell just rang. There are some unique block instruments in that part of the world. Elsewhere, as a more rudimentary alternative, people have been known to leave objects balanced in such a way that they'll be knocked off when the bell rings to help them tell which bell rang! To be honest BR's penguin block instruments do have quite similar sounding bells. The Western's bells are easier to distinguish. I believe Scotland was fond of using a bell for one box and a gong for another.
Thanks for the detailed explaination, now I can solo Stockport without worry if I broke rules.
I suppose I can skip the different bells part as well, SimSig dont support it :P.

TUT in post 160428 said:
All that being the case an experienced signaller should generally have a good idea what their colleagues in rear are doing and what their colleagues in advance are expecting them to do. You have good visibility of what's going on and with experience you'll know what to look for and what to expect. It's like anything.
You would thought it was easier when all 5 signaller are the same person, turns out it was not that easy when the player was also trying to manager Man Pic especially with the [No Longsight Throughline] scenario on...
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Stockport FAQ 13/03/2025 at 23:48 #160517
clive
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2823 posts 		TUT in post 160428 said:

I assume you know that in general each line or pair of lines will have its own block instrument with its own (relatively) distinct bell. You get to know the different tones of the different bells so you know which line a train is being offered on.
Within limits.

In the 1935 Welwyn collision, the signaller was dealing with 11 separate block bells. At the time there were four ECML tracks plus two single lines, one from Hatfield to Luton on the Down side and the other from Hatfield to Hertford on the Up side. Hatfield had separate Up and Down boxes, so that's 6 bells. Then in the north direction there was one for the main lines, one for each branch, one for the Down Goods (now Down Slow) and one for the Up Slow. You can't get more than 5 or 6 different tones, so it was too easy to get confused.
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Stockport FAQ 14/03/2025 at 07:50 #160521
jc92
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3734 posts 		Stockport blocks are fitted with lights to indicate which one is being used.

Other tricks Have been employed elsewhere like attaching string hangers or card strips to the tapper so it visibly moves when striking. There's also the one of muffling a bell to a tap to get an extra tone with some cloth or similar. In some cases you can also see "foreign" instruments that have been imported to add a distinctive tone not available on indigenous ones.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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