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Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 21:35 #129637 | |
TUT
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On the West Highland line, I understand that RETB signalling begins at Helensburgh Upper where Banavie SC takes over for down trains (or passes up trains over to Yoker and RETB ends). But Helensburgh Upper is in the middle of a single line, it's not a passing place and indeed there's a whole section of single line between Craigendoran Junction and Helensburgh Upper that is apparently worked by TCB. So my question is, how is the fringe between the two signalling centres handled? I read that Banavie can only issue tokens from Garelochhead to Helensburgh Upper with the cooperation of Yoker. So is that the method? Yoker can signal trains between Craigendoran Junction and Helensburgh Upper without any input from Banavie whatsoever, but for Banavie to issue a token from Garelochhead to Helensburgh Upper, it requires some sort of slot? I notice three little roundels in this shot of Yoker IECC: https://westhighlandline.org.uk/visit-to-yoker-signalling-centre/ R.E.T.B.WORKING NOR REL R.FAIL Is that just a status indicator? Or does REL release Banavie and enable them to issue a Garelochhead to Helensburgh Upper token? Last edited: 15/07/2020 at 21:35 by TUT Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:04 #129638 | |
Ron_J
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Offered and accepted by bell, using the slot you note.
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Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:08 #129639 | |
Ron_J
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Incidentally that must be quite an old photo of Yoker as the SSM job was done away with in 2014 and the workstations were renewed with MCS equivalents in 2017.
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Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:12 #129641 | |
TUT
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Ron_J in post 129638 said:Offered and accepted by bell, using the slot you note.Really? Very interesting, thanks for the info! Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:19 #129642 | |
GeoffM
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The Yoker signaller can route trains into Helensborough Upper without Banavie; however, Yoker is required to exchange bell codes before setting the route into Helensburgh Upper itself (641 signal). Yes, the IECC has buttons on the desk to send bells! The Banavie signaller sends bell codes to which Yoker responds, and Yoker sets the REL control. This allows Banavie to issue a token to Helensburgh Upper. Looking at the signalbox instructions, it suggests that a train can be shunting on the single line between Craigendoran and Helensburgh (exc) while still allowing the token - though signaller beware! There is also mention of setting the acceptance to Normal (NOR) but I don't understand when, under normal circumstances. SimSig Boss Last edited: 15/07/2020 at 22:19 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:41 #129644 | |
TUT
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Thanks a lot Geoff GeoffM in post 129642 said: There is also mention of setting the acceptance to Normal (NOR) but I don't understand when, under normal circumstances.In what context? I would tend to assume that this wouldn't be done under normal circumstances, but in an emergency. This would be akin to the provisions of TS2 (Track Circuit Block Regulations), Regulation 4 - Obstruction of the line. Quote: 4.1 Stopping trains because of an emergencyUnless it's simply that it doesn't reset itself and you have to restore the acceptance to normal after the passage of a train? Last edited: 15/07/2020 at 22:42 by TUT Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 15/07/2020 at 22:44 #129645 | |
headshot119
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The release is placed back to normal when Banavie confirm to Yoker (2-5 bellcode) that the RETB token has been returned by the train at Helensburgh Upper. Think of it as getting train out of section in ETB. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 13:37 #129646 | |
clive
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Related to this, "Leeds" signalling area (actually York IECC) controls as far as Gargrave, after which the Sectional says it's AB to Hellifield. Does that IECC use bell codes as well or is there some kind of special working?
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Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 13:41 #129647 | |
headshot119
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clive in post 129646 said:Related to this, "Leeds" signalling area (actually York IECC) controls as far as Gargrave, after which the Sectional says it's AB to Hellifield. Does that IECC use bell codes as well or is there some kind of special working?TCB working applies between the appropriate workstation in York ROC (No longer the IECC) and Hellfield signal 42 on the down line, and from Hellifield 25 on the up line to York ROC. Hellifield then works AB to Settle Junction and Horrocksford Junction. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 14:54 #129648 | |
bill_gensheet
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GeoffM in post 129642 said:There is a down signal well before Helensburgh Upper, so providing safe separation / shunt limit. The screenshot does not show shunt exit arrows, or is that the brand of system ? Not quite as scary as one I have recently read about, that trains could shunt onto a single line without the token as long as following a train departure. I assume some local understanding of the shunt limits as there were no advanced signals / remote section signal either. Obviously not allowed if a train was approaching, but no mention of interlocking against that. Bill Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 15:05 #129649 | |
Tempest Malice
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bill_gensheet in post 129648 said:
I believe the shunt exit might be from the single line into those sidings just above. And as this is an IECC shunt related exit controls might only be shown on the detail view, and I imagine this linked picture is of the overview screen instead. clive in post 129646 said: Related to this, "Leeds" signalling area (actually York IECC) controls as far as Gargrave, after which the Sectional says it's AB to Hellifield. Does that IECC use bell codes as well or is there some kind of special working? Whilst Karl's post shows your example location is not one where it applies; I will say that AB working from computer based control systems is not that uncommon. At the least I know for certain that manchester east westcad works full AB (with bells outside the control system, but block controls provided within it) to Dinting (and did to Ashton Moss when that box still existed) (see hereand here )and I imagine other examples exist too. Last edited: 16/07/2020 at 15:07 by Tempest Malice Reason: add links to pictures Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 15:10 #129650 | |
Steamer
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Tempest Malice in post 129649 said:bill_gensheet in post 129648 said:I think Bill was referring to a shunt exit arrow for the route onto the Highland (for setting a route like this). It looks like that facility isn't provided here; nor is there necessarily a need to provide it. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 17:08 #129652 | |
bill_gensheet
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Steamer in post 129650 said:Indeed I was. The 'Jacobite/Potter' ECS ran round the front loco in the WHL loop on Monday, which would need shunt onto WHL and also shunt east, then back onto stock. Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 17:24 #129654 | |
GeoffM
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bill_gensheet in post 129648 said:GeoffM in post 129642 said:That's not the point: a moment of inattention could have two trains staring each other, socially distanced. Not unsafe, just rather inconvenient.There is a down signal well before Helensburgh Upper, so providing safe separation / shunt limit. I think people are confusing shunt routes with shunting of trains. Note that the down signals don't have position lights. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 18:20 #129658 | |
jc92
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Tempest Malice in post 129649 said:Barnham works AB to Bognor Regis while itself being a workstation nowadays as well. The Hellifield to Skipton section used to be classed as AB with automatic signalling with its own seperate regulations, simulator to the Steeton to Keighley section, however this was removed once power signalling was installed around 93/94. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 16/07/2020 at 18:21 by jc92 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 20:46 #129667 | |
Steamer
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jc92 in post 129658 said:If I remember rightly, there was a weird set-up where Hellifield controlled an IB signal (think it was at Bell Busk) for the section in rear on the Down. It was a factor in an accident where an express rear-ended a train stopped in the station. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 16/07/2020 at 23:05 #129676 | |
postal
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Steamer in post 129667 said:jc92 in post 129658 said:The Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation Accident Report into the incident is available online at http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Hellifield1955.pdf. The gist is that the IB signals had a lever in Hellifield South Box but would work automatically if left to themselves. The box instructions were that the signals had to be replaced after every train. After they were replaced the sequential locking meant that they could not be cleared again until the next signals (Hellifield South distant and outer home) had also been replaced. The accident occurred when the IB signals were left to work automatically and there was a delay in replacing the signals at Hellifield South so the second train had a clear distant, leading the driver of the train to assume he had a clear road.If I remember rightly, there was a weird set-up where Hellifield controlled an IB signal (think it was at Bell Busk) for the section in rear on the Down. It was a factor in an accident where an express rear-ended a train stopped in the station. Edit. There are also scans of the box instructions available at http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/hellifield/hellifield.htm. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 16/07/2020 at 23:16 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Steamer |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 17/07/2020 at 09:45 #129691 | |
kbarber
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bill_gensheet in post 129648 said:It's in the ETB Regs (or certainly was in the 1972 book and previously) that you could shunt into a single line section without a token provided the train with the token was proceeding away from you. If the train arrived at the other end and the signalman there replaced the token in the machine, you were required to acknowledge the 2-1 then immediately send 3-3 (blocking back), which (under those particular circumstances) the other signalman wasn't permitted to refuse. It was also permissible to shunt on to the single line at both ends of the section under the protection of a 3-3 and without any token at all being withdrawn. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bill_gensheet |
Transfer of trains from Yoker IECC -- Banavie SC 17/07/2020 at 10:12 #129693 | |
headshot119
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ETB replies split off into https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/51062?postId=129692
"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |